Forrest Griffin is going to take deserved heat for sprinting out of the Octagon and to the back after his humiliating showing against Anderson Silva at Wachovia Center last night. He also might have made the right choice. Accept the heat for dashing away without a post-fight comment. That Octagon belonged to Silva at that moment, Forrest knew it, and Forrest had nothing to say.
Most people go to work and have good days and bad days. Fighters work every day all year, and overtime for about two months, before entering that Octagon. Losing like Griffin lost was something close to a novelist having his hard drive crash and his back-up drive catch on fire when he was just about finished with his 300 page draft. Everything was for nothing (except the payday). So while Griffin is a professional and fans would have liked to hear from him, it's understandable that he just wanted to hold it together long enough to get out of the public eye and then let out his emotions. He's an emotional guy, and there's good and bad that comes along with that. After a great fight, even in losing he's going to give a great post-fight interview. Forrest, though, knew he fell short of even the most pessimistic predictions.
Anderson Silva [artist Cory Gould (c) MMATorch]
SILVA'S CONDUCT
There are some message board comments critical of Silva for showing up Griffin by dropping his hands, egging him on, offering patronizing handshakes, and challenging him to bring it on. That's totally unfair. Silva took heat - undeserved in my opinion, but I respect and understand the conflicting views - for two boring victories in his last two fights. Fair enough. Fans want fighters who are vitriolic, who are demonstrative, who are larger than life personalities. They either want to love or hate you, not "respect you" but feel nothing stronger.
Silva gave the fans what they asked for. He was cocky and in the face of Griffin once he realized Griffin was no threat to him. He was so sure he had the fight wrapped up, he took the type of chances that fans wanted him to do in his previous recent fights. It was also a fight strategy. Silva knew Griffin was matched against him because Dana White (and fans) knew Griffin would push the pace. When Silva sensed Forrest was intimidated and hurt, he played into Griffin's pride. He got Griffin to be aggressive at a time when Griffin should have gotten conservative and used the break between rounds to try to gather himself. Griffin was obviously thinking along those lines; he looked up at the clock after Silva showed him early in the round why he is the most feared striker in MMA today. Griffin should have laid back and mentally he knew it. Emotionally, though, he didn't want to be "another one of those fighters."
What Silva did last night wasn't actually that different than what he did in his two recent title defenses in one key sense: In each fight, he employed the fight strategy that was most likely to get him a victory. Against Thales Leites and Patrick Cote, the smart strategy was to lay back and let Leites or Cote make a mistake. In this fight, the smart strategy was to goad the prideful, typically aggressive swing-for-the-fences Griffin into fighting hard when he would have been better off stalling until round two.
The outcome probably wouldn't have been any different. Silva's striking is in a class all its own, and Griffin after taking the first Silva punch seemed to have that look in his eyes that he had seen a God of Fighting before him who was in another class. Griffin was mentally beat already. Silva knew he could win anytime, probably. He also knew the best time was right away, with Griffin hurt, but not wanting to back off and be like Silva's last two opponents.
Silva wasn't classless this time any more than he fought bad fights the last two times. Silva fought to win, and against Griffin, in this context (with pressure on Griffin to deliver an aggressive offensive fight), his best chance to win was to showboat and make faces and bob and weave and drop his hands. It worked. Silva knows how to win. Sometimes it thrills fans and other times frustrates them. He's undefeated in UFC for a reason, and being the smartest fighter in the game might just be the main one.
Forrest Griffin [artist Cory Gould (c) MMATorch]
DID FORREST TAKE A DIVE?
There are some fans suggesting that Griffin took a dive, comparing the fight to WWE. First of all, people in pro wrestling don't "take dives." It's staged from start to finish. Rocky Balboa didn't "take a dive" when he lost to Apollo Creed; they were characters executing a script, just as WWE performers do.
Second, and more importantly, I don't think Griffin took a dive, but it is one of those finishes that will have people speculating. He charged at Silva, in an already dazed and vulnerable condition, as Silva was throwing a punch to his exposed face. Silva knows how to get power behind his punches from every angle, and there was power there. In essence, Forrest charged face-first into a brick wall. All of Forrest's weight was behind him as he charged in, badly missing two punches, and leaving himself totally open to a fist to the face. Not just anyone could have pulled off what Silva did. Silva may be one of the few, in fact. But coming from Silva, it's totally believable.
For it to have been a dive, Silva would have had to have been in on it, too. Silva didn't seen the least bit surprised by Griffin going down, and if he didn't feel that was a KO punch, he would have reacted with suspicion and shame, not elation. Silva sensed - rightly so - that Griffin was in trouble already.
In fact, if Griffin was taking a dive, and Silva and Griffin were both in on it, Silva would have made his punch more believable. There would have been no way Silva, if he knew Griffin was taking a dive in round one, would have thrown a punch to end the fight that would have been suspicious. There are also much better ways to close out a fixed fight than asking a fighter to take a fake dive on a half-assed looking backwards punch. I mean, that'd be the last option you'd use if you were fixing a fight.
If the argument is Griffin was strong-armed into taking a KO dive in round one to satisfy some MMA gambling mafia who had their money on that specific finish, then Silva would have reacted with more surprise that Griffin went down like that from a punch like that. Or he'd have been in on it. There's no realistic reason for Griffin and Silva, or just Griffin, to have thrown that fight. In fact, in retrospect, it played out as it should have given the character, history, style, and expectations of the fighters involved.
The fights that are fixed, if there are any at all, are going to be by tapout because it's a lot easier to make that "look real." The last way a fixed fight would be scripted would be this way.
WHAT'S NEXT FOR GRIFFIN
Griffin might quit MMA. I mean, this was a humbling, humiliating loss. He was matched against Silva to deliver a good fight, not imitate Tim Sylvia against a washed-up boxer.
More likely, though, Griffin will realize that he's in good company. Rich Franklin was humiliated in his first fight against Silva, too. Griffin is just the latest world class fighter to lose to Silva convincingly. Dan Henderson, Patrick Cote, Thales Leites, Nate Marquardt, and on and on all fell to Silva.
Griffin's track record is deep and strong enough that he can make a good living as a fan favorite "gate keeper" in the light-heavyweight division, and he can use the Silva fight as motivation to improve his game and realize the limitations of his balls-out KO-or-be-KO'd approach. That's a mid-card style that will get him booked on UFC cards and earn five-figure paydays for years to come. Or he can decide to try to become a champion again by changing his approach to training and adjusting his style based on his opponent, and getting better at picking his spots even at the risk of being a less exciting fighter in the eyes of the fans. It's his choice. He has a lot to consider.
What Griffin did was vindicate, to a degree, Leites and Cote, because he showed what would have happened had they gotten aggressive and took the chances Griffin took. Griffin did what was asked of him, and he got thrashed and outclassed.
I'll suggest this. If UFC wants to get some ratings on Spike TV, promise a live sitdown interview with Griffin at the next Fight Night. Have Griffin say nothing until then. It'll be the highest rated segment of the show, and if Griffin plays his cards right, it could make Griffin an even bigger star going into his next fight than anything else he could do at this point.
Kenny Florian [artist Cory Gould (c) MMATorch]
OTHER THOUGHTS
Let's try outlawing the word "class-act" or "classy" from the vocabulary of UFC announcers the rest of the year. Mike Goldberg gives out the adjective "class-act" like candy on Halloween... After yet another useless post-fight B.J. Penn interview, White should start giving out bonuses for best post-fight interview, and take away money for fighters who don't answer Joe Rogan's questions and go off on boorish tangents... Penn looked really good. He's going to be happy he won, but a little disappointed Silva stole his thunder. There's not an MMA headline out there leading with his win right now. Florian was crushed in defeat, but a week from now he'll realize he will be better for this loss and there's no shame in losing to Penn. Penn has more big fight experience, and Florian held his own really well. He put in a respectable performance. But "solving" Penn, with Florian's skillset, is going to be a challenge... I agree with both Jamie Penick and Shawn Ennis, who gave the three undercard fights two stars each. It was a forgettable undercard... I had Penn-Florian at three-stars and Forrest-Silva at three-stars-plus. Incredible KO finish, but given the anticipation for a slugfest, it was a bit of a letdown saved only by the incredible nature of the KO...
***
Wade Keller is the Supervising Editor and Founder of MMATorch.com. He has covered MMA for the Torch since before UFC existed, including Japanese shoot-fight cards such as Pancrase in the early 1990s, plus all of the early UFC PPV events (some of those reports can be found in the MMATorch Flashbacks category). He covered the first UFC event in Las Vegas in person in 2001 and Brock Lesnar's recent return to his hometown Minneapolis when he defeated "Crazyhorse" Heath Herring. He has interviewed Dana White, Mike Goldberg, the original UFC match-maker Art Davie, and others in MMA over the years. He has also been interviewed as an MMA reporter by major newspapers dating back to the mid-1990s. He has trained in karate, judo, and jiu jitsu, with over 12 years of formal martial arts training and tournament fighting. He is a double black stripe belt in tae kwon do.
Generally agree, especially on the class act thing. More importantly,
though, is the fact that BJ is the last guy you'd ever call a "class act."
You have guys like Anderson Silva and GSP who very rarely say anything bad
about their opponents in the build-up and then show nothing but gratitude
and respect to rival fighters even as they absolutely destroy them. Silva
even called Griffin a "true champion" at the press conference today.
Meanwhile, Penn didn't really put Florian over at all at the press
conference; he also is a known complainer who whined about GSP putting
vasoline on his back. Penn's an amazing fighter, but he's a prick.
There's just no way around that.
As for Griffin, most of the analysis is right but I feel like you bought
the UFC hype a little too much on his aggression. He hadn't been
aggressive since the Jardine knockout--in fact his patience is what won him
the fights against Hector Ramirez and Rampage Jackson (so the whole - he
needs to re-evaluate his aggressiveness is a comment that's like three
years too late). In all fairness, though, he also bought into the hype a
little too much too - it's clear he felt pressure to be the guy who "brings
it" to Silva, even though that was a terrible strategy.
The only arguement of this fight being fixed I would have to say, is the
issue regarding fedor. DW(and zuffa) were enraged about the hole issue so
to smash idea of fedor being p4p best fighter, he exploited Asilva (because
thats one of his biggest arguments when the topic is brought up. That
Asilva or gsp is p4p top fighter) he probley forced Ailva to make an
example out of forrest. Also because of the resent speculation regarding
Asilva on his last 2 fights. I doubt DW would even taken the risk of asking
forrest to throw a fight, forrest probley had a good grasp of the gravity
of the siduation (regarding fedor and Asilvas last 2 fights) or he walked
into the fight knowing this, so he came into the ring scared. You could see
it in his facial expressions. I strongly belive this because UFC smashes on
all compition at any cost, they were disappointed with Asilvas previous
preformaces, and this was a good opportunity to detour fans away from fedor
issue, The UFC company is a capitalist big coperation wallmart of sports.
basicly and if you are a die hard MMA fan you know what im talking about.
So yes in a way the fight was fixed but off handly. Check out
www.myfights.net/forum if you liked this post and want to discuss
intresting mma events
ginrog
09 Aug 2009, 05:08
The fight was not fixed 'off handly' or any other way student. Your post
makes no sense and is very had to read. 'He probley forced Ailva to make an
example...' Really? You don't think that Silva had something to prove on
his own?
I think Silva was mad because of all the bull he had to listen to because
he barely even needed to show up last few times to win. He went in there
with a guy who was supposed to bring it but Silva was way out of Griffin's
league for striking and I think that made Silva even madder.
This showed as the first round wore on and Silva looked like that scene in
Spiderman where Peter realizes everything in the fight is moving slower
than he is...And they call him The Spider...
Oh by the way: with the grammar and spelling in that post who would want to
look at the forum you usually post?
The reality is, i that ASilva is a scary ass fighter on his feet. Take a
look at his kick boxing vids. All his opponents see that and are scared to
death of him. Rich Franklin has never been the same fighter since his
encounters with ASilva. He should fight Machida. Basically Machida, Silva,
Fedor, and GSP are all fighting at a martial art level. They aren't just
athletic guys with strength and speed and heart. They have all 3 of those
attributes along with a higher knowledge of the art. ASilva has lost in the
past but learned from it too only become better. Griffin is a great athlete
and great fighter, but a mule on the art form.
Richard
09 Aug 2009, 08:25
Great win by Silva. I am absolutely disappointed with Griffin's behavior.
What's with "no mas" hands in the air (when he was on his back) and running
out of the ring? He should have 1)showed more heart and fought on and 2) be
more gracious. Nothing wrong with losing, even in the manner that he did.
But he didn't need to throw away his dignity at the same time. He'll regret
that after a few moments of clear thinking and reflection.
D.O.
09 Aug 2009, 08:26
Great point Mario... don't think the fight with Silva and Lyotto will
happen (mainly since Silva said he doesn't want to fight his Compadre) but
man i sure would love to see it
truth
09 Aug 2009, 10:08
truth is forrest made some stupid mistakes,,,LUNGING after silva,,,,with
his shoulders square...both arms were extended out ,,,,,no wonder silva
found him an easy target...sure it looks like it was staged just like a wwe
wrestling show! THEN forest ran out of the ring? i was wondering what the
hell is going on here?! this really looks like it was staged! big time ! i
dont think forrest would have fought that stupid for real...lots have
fights have been THROWN in professional fights ! viewers dont find out and
thats the point..bring up the up and coming fighters by having the veterans
like forrest throw the fight..yes even in mma....now that mma has lots of
money involved throwing the fight will be more common in future fights...of
course it could be the beginning of a rematch in the future...why else have
a fighter throw a fight when next time it WILL bring in even more money
next time when the start having forrests future opponants throw their
fights ...makes it set for next rematch between forrest and silva....truth
karimato
09 Aug 2009, 10:22
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Joe Harnish
09 Aug 2009, 10:54
Forrest Griffen had a horrible performance. I mean this fight almost
looked fixed. How can a former light heavy weight get that dominated in
the ring. Two things come to mind when this happens, one Griffen didn't
take this fight seriously or he is just too over rated and should never
have been in the ring with Silva. What's up with him running out of the
Octagon, show some class and respect, don't run off. Now granted he did
get pummeled in the first round and it was quite embarrassing to watch but
suck it up. In my opinion as a fan this may be a turning point in Forrest
Griffen's career on the downside.
truth
09 Aug 2009, 11:21
lets start talking about HOW forrest fought the fight please....cmon really
stupid errors that forrest made ,, cmon i watch beginners in mma classes
who have just a couple of months training not fighting like griffin,,....
lunging with both arms extended as he was punching ? what the hell is that?
you throw a punch and have the other one guarding ! not have both arms out
while you are punching ! what the hell was forrest doing? every fighter
knows this ! against someone as dangerous like silva you dont fight like
that ! FIX!
truth
09 Aug 2009, 11:39
basically lunging at silva shoulders square punching with both arms at
shoulder level ---- OPEN TARGET ! what the hell was that ? move into him
with shoulders not square ,have one hand guarding while you punch,move the
head around,bob and weave his punches,jab,cross,uppercut,overhand,when he
is close to the cage blitz him with attacks ,when he gets close to the cage
where he cant move around-attack ! ,low kicks if his leg is in range, do
knees, take down,the list goes on and on! but running after silva ,,,
lunging with shoulders square ? wtf! cmon! musta been fixed !
truth
09 Aug 2009, 11:47
REMATCH ! DAMIT ! even if this was fixed i want a rematch damit! i think we
all do ! i dont know who forrests cornermen were or his trainers ! but
damit he better find some other ones cause last night he was looking like
he was trained by street bums! hell look at what i wrote above ! he wouldve
fought way better had he used some of the tactics i mentioned above ! WTF!
Erick Taylor
09 Aug 2009, 13:50
Ok lets be for real on this subject! We are talking about Forrest the guy
that changed the face of the UFC in the fight on Spike with Bonnar, Forrest
the former UFC light heavey weight Champion of the world.Forrest the guys
whos heart was bigger than his skill's and who never quits. That guy got
demolished in the worst way. I turned my head to grab a chip and it was
over. Im angry and frustrated. Honnestly It looked fake and pathetic. Im
done with forrest. The truth is I dont think dana whites in the biz of
staging a fight, I meann lets face it ppl talk and the UFC would be history
if that every leaked on to the streets. Whos the match makers anyway.. Lets
put the pound for pound fighter in the world in the octagon with the pound
for pound contenders. GSP, The Dragon Matcitia. Or ppl like the axe
murderer. Ok Ok Ok I get it the UFC dont want anderson to loose that would
cost them millions if he did, He is The UFC.
Wow Anderson definitely has some haters. But it's cool the world needs
haters to make the real players stand out. Griffins' lacking in skill is a
well known fault. I was around Griffin "fans" during the rampage fight (who
i think rampage really one) and his fans want him to win because they are
fans not because they know about fighting. So truth be told, Griffin was
out classed. Everyone knew it BEFORE they fought and it was proven
nonetheless. Machida and Silva SHOULD fight regardless of them being
compadres.
Trytus
09 Aug 2009, 17:26
D.O. you don't think the Silva and Machida fight will happen because Silva
doesn't want to fight his friend? It doesn't matter who he wants to fight.
He'll fight who the UFC tells him to fight. He said he wants to fight the
best, well he damn well better be willing to fight Machida then.
That was a huge dissapointment by Griffin. I mean he pretty much tapped out
from a standup confrontation. He clearly wasn't K.O'd, he still had his
wits about him, he just didn't want to get hit anymore. I seriously thought
he was tougher than that. I've seen a lot of UFC fights and I've never seen
anything like that. It was seriously reminiscent of Tyson vs Golota.
cyril furlong
09 Aug 2009, 17:35
I think silva and machida would would have a hard time solving the GSP
puzzle for sure.With GSP and his excellent take downs,silva would be in
deep trouble once on the mat.As for machida,you can run but you cannot run
forever.
Lloyd
09 Aug 2009, 18:50
Griffin throwing the fight wouldn't do anything good for anyone, he was a
massive underdog. If anyone was going to throw the fight for the benefit
of the big money bets, it would have been Silva because Griffin was like a
4:1 underdog.
Griffin just got plain ol' outclassed. He's never been that great of a
striker, and certainly hasn't ever had much power in his punches (Forrest
"Pillow Fist" Griffin seems apt haha) yet he tried to stand and trade.
I think that Forrest felt obligated to give the fans what they wanted, a
toe-to-toe throwdown, and didn't realize just how AMAZINGLY great Silva
is.
Forrest always says how he is not one to be mentally broken. Well, I think
after the first few times Silva popped him, he started thinking that there
was no way he could win the fight. Once a fighter starts thinking that,
its over.
It's too bad, I've always liked Griffin. I think he just needs to
redevelop his strategy as a fighter (he has size and a very underrated
ground game, whereas his standup is relatively weak, save for his
fairly-decent leg kicks) and redevote himself to that new strategy. Take
the next fight as a tune-up to work out the kinks and he could still be a
contender.
mario
09 Aug 2009, 18:51
Well problem for GSP is that Silva is a lot heavier than him naturally and
is big for a middleweight. Silva creamed Griffin who is a big light
heavyweight. GSP is too small for Silva. Silva (right now) besides Machida
is the clear best. I'm telling you, the closest match for him is Machida. I
don't think Fedor has seen the competition Silva has, but I'd still love to
see that fight.
Erick Taylor
10 Aug 2009, 02:53
I want some input on this. Pound for pound best fighter in the world. Who
knows guys. Lets see here, we got these fighters in no order. Brock lesnar
who is a freak of an athelte, devistating power and wrestling who lacks
only mma fights. GSP who is a world class wrestler and is a master on his
feet. Anderson Silvia who is a showman and a damn ninja it seems who makes
some of the best fighters in the world look like lil boys in a fight club.
The Dragon machita who not only has the highest landed striking percentage
in the UFC, but also the lowest opponent strikes landed on him. Folks this
is not only in the UFC The Dragons percentages is the best in mma period,
this dude is bad. A absolute master on his feet and refuses to be taken
down. Fedor is dumb for not signing with the UFC but none the less he is
one of the best in the world. and whoever says the level of comp that fedor
has fought isnt that of Anderson Silvias is dead wrong sorry man but he has
fought everyone that pride, Sambo, Affliction or any org. has put infront
of him and brutaly hurt most of them. Norifumi Yamamoto is a bad bad dude
for 155 hes a mad man. Urijah Faber is the WEC hes so busy in the ring he
never quits he's up there so there you have it. If dana wants to give ppl
the fights that we want I want Anderson THE SPIDER SILVIA V.S Ryoto
Machida. Friends or not we dont care we want the best to fight the best. Oh
Yeah dana it's about time for GSP to move up and challenge himself.
Brent
11 Aug 2009, 09:21
you're really dodging most of the evidence there. to avoid talking about
forrest's run, forrest's holding his hand up to say let me up, their
shaking hands in the middle of the fight, griffin's unusual slowness and
unwillingness to put his hips behind his punches, silva's unwillingness to
go in for a real kill after any of the knockdowns.
it is clear that these guys tried to make it look real and to make silva
look like the "best in the world." however, like fixes in boxes, the smell
of corruption is just too strong.
you're not being honest, as are most people who refuse to acknowledge that
this has dana white's stench all over it.
before this fight, was silva enjoying the "best fighter in the world"
reputation that he had for 2 years? no! his reputation was going downhill.
his last 2 fights were awful performances.
ufc administration was desperate to get their guy known, again, as the top
guy.
dana white goes livid whenever someone suggests that a fighter besides his
guys are at the top.
it is not beyond him to fix a fight so he can sit back and relax while
everyone says that his guy is the best in the world.
this fight was nothing but PR work for the ufc.
either wake up or be honest, wade--whichever one is ailing you.
Mr. Pink
11 Aug 2009, 10:54
My Take.
Fight Fixed? Possible. Likely? No. Why? Everyone would have to be
involved in some way and on some level and the risk wouldn't be worth the
payout. Also, the beauty of the fight business is that no matter what the
outcome there is going to be options generated. Who cares who wins or
loses or how - it's all just scrap material to build another project for
re-sale. Maybe if someone was threatened by a mafia or some such. Even then
so many factors are involved it's just retarded.
If I had to bet on some conspiracy rigged fight or whether or not I could
eat a can of beef-o-reeno and blow my ass to the moon, I'd put hard
currency on the latter.
Also, pay attention to the law of averages. Listen to what people say and
watch how they act. Dana White appears to have a life goal. Above all the
drama and media blitz there is a purpose - we've all got this shit going on
- and for DW it seems he wants MMA to become recognized under the umbrella
of mainstream sports like NFL, NBA, NHL and the like. So why in the Christ
would he risk leveling everything he's built for a few extra bucks. He's a
little impulsive, probably his fair share of greedy too but he's not an
idiot. It's not good business.
Mr. Pink
11 Aug 2009, 11:22
Is Forrest Griffin a good fighter? Sure, I wouldn't fight the sob.
However, Silva is in a different class altogether. It's just not a good
match up. Unfortunately most of the fighters in the UFC do not and would
not match up. They don't move like Silva. They're in MMA but they still
stand and deliver with the North American Boxing style. Ok, most have
realized that footwork is important but I'm endlessly amazed at how many
fighters miss their mark and never catch legs and fists - they don't see it
coming or going. Silva has a calm disposition which makes for a very
dangerous fighter. He watches and waits and moves around with tremendous
fluidity. Fights are about a lot of things but one of them is rhythm and
until you get someone with similar rhythm the contenders will have a
punchers chance. Well, unless someone has superman wrestling, manages a
take down without their head getting taken off and neutralizes Silva on the
ground. Big if.
sTINK
11 Aug 2009, 11:25
Keller, I have to state this because I have studied tae Kwon do for some
time, and know alot of people in different martial arts styles. I have yet
to meet one master that would teach his students or condone any of this
type of behavior out of one of his students. UFC is for Mixed Martial
Artists not wrestling, that is what WWF is for. The first rule of all
martial arts is Disapline not acting like a spoiled jack ass and attempting
to make your opponent look stupid. Look at Machida when he won. What did he
do? He knelt and bowed and then ran over to make sure Evans was ok and
thanked him for the fight. Any fans that are looking to see this stupid
behavior need to turn on raw and leave the dignity of this sport alone.
