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By: Rich Hansen, MMATorch Columnist and Jamie Penick, MMATorch Editor-in-Chief
MMATorch Columnist Rich Hansen sat down with one of the top trainers in MMA, Milwaukee's Duke Roufus, following UFC on Fox 6 last month to discuss the results of that event and more. He had plenty to say on the performances of his fighters that night - Pascal Krauss, Erik Koch, and Anthony Pettis - and a lot more. The interview was conducted prior to Pettis' booking against Jose Aldo, and you can read it below:
RICH HANSEN: The big question on my mind coming out of the show in Chicago is, of course, where in the hell did you come up with the superman uppercut punch?
DUKE ROUFUS: That's just something that Panzer... that was actually Panzer's creation one day. I just encouraged it and the next thing you know, boom. It's fun stuff, man, it's the Flying Panzer is what that's called now.
HANSEN: Did you see something in Stumpf's stance? I noticed that he kept his hands high and his elbows out.
ROUFUS: Exactly, that's exactly what that hole was that we saw. Pascal had fun throwing it. Again, he's trying to put himself on the map as an entertaining fighter. Right now there's only two fighters on the roster from Germany in the UFC. One of them lives in Germany, but he's an immigrant, where Pascal is a born and bred German kid. We're really trying to help shape Pascal's image in UFC Germany so that he can be the face over there. The German GSP, if you will.
HANSEN: If you have a technical striker like Pascal, or even a really good striker on the ground like Ben Askren, can power be taught? Is it developed in the gym? Or is power in strikes something where you're either born with it or not?
ROUFUS: Some people are born with it, but no, it can be taught. Definitely Pascal, once he gets more comfortable with his new style that he's adopted, that he's going to hit even harder. If you see too, as well, Ben's hitting harder and getting a feel how to throw bombs on the ground. It's like anything else, you've got to fight to get more comfortable. That's what I think. A lot of my guys would like to fight every three months, two months if they could. Right now everything's log-jammed up in the UFC. It's one of those things where it's real important to stay active and stay in the gym, because if you can, you can get a fight as soon as possible.
HANSEN: I want to ask you a little bit on the mental side of the game. Specifically overcoming obstacles, and even more specifically, the obstacles that are now in front of Alan Belcher and Erik Koch. Both Belcher and Koch were overwhelmed on the mat by Yushin Okami and Ricardo Lamas, respectively, what exactly does a fighter have to do to take a devastating, surprising result like that and turn it into a positive?
ROUFUS: Well, I think - not taking anything away from Ricardo Lamas - sometimes a young fighter like Erik is, why they're young, and why guys aren't superstar quarterbacks at the age Erik is, because it takes awhile to find your game. Erik's gotta go re-invent himself, which is ironic because normally that's not an area that he struggles with in training. He's real strong there. It was a little mental lapse and he's got to regroup, he's got to take that scar that he's got from the elbows and make sure it never happens again to him. You've gotta go out there and take control of the fight. That's one thing that I was urging him to do and he didn't do. I thought if he would have been more aggressive striking the fight wasn't even close on the fight. He just came in and wasn't getting going. Maybe it was ring rust, I'm not sure. I don't necessarily believe in ring rust, but you've gotta get yourself mentally prepared to show up that night and perform. That's part of the process on your way to becoming a champion, getting in that champion mindset so that you can show up and perform. We're going to work on it. Me, I'm in his corner forever. Me, I don't coach on results, I coach on potential. I know the potential that Erik has, and it's not where you start it's where you finish. All a setback is is a set up for a great comeback.
HANSEN: What do you do? What's the bridge to get from the lowest of lows to where you want to be?
ROUFUS: Show up, man. Most people quit. You've just got to work through it. That's the bottom line, you've got to work through it. If you work through it, it will get better.
HANSEN: I want to get your take on the Bellator-UFC-Eddie Alvarez love triangle, not so much about that specific case, but the potential ramifications of Bellator's and UFC's respective positions. With this whole situation with Bellator fighting so hard on the match on Alvarez's contract give you any pause if one of your younger fighters asked you what you should do if they were offered a contract from Bellator?
ROUFUS: It's all situational. If it's a good deal for that guy at that time in his career, and it's able to get what he wants to accomplish at that time, sure… Like Rick Glenn, we wanted to get him into the UFC but they're log jammed. I think they have 57 [145 lb. fighters], a lot of guys have dropped recently. It's tough, so we took a very respectful deal with the World Series of Fighting. I'm a fan of the guys over at Bellator too. They're nice to me. We only have one guy right now, and that's "Nasty" Ben Askren.
HANSEN: Yeah, I've heard of him (laughs)
ROUFUS: Yeah. He's "Nasty" now, so it's all that situation. Everything is situational. Whatever works for you. I'm getting some good dialogue going with Matt Hume, who's the matchmaker over at ONE FC too. Here's the cool thing about this whole thing, most of the people that are running this stuff I've known for years, and the relationships I've had my whole life are starting to come to fruition. Ray Sefo, who's a dear friend of mine who was over at K-1 and now runs World Series of Fighting. My friends at Golden Glory, Bas Boon, I've known him and those guys since my early 20s in kickboxing. It's pretty crazy how years and years of hard work and dedication and relationships are starting to come together, and it's awesome. Again, those deals with different organizations are always situational. I've got a great relationship with Score Fighting Series. The UFC's let us have some guys fight for us outside of the UFC.
HANSEN: Yeah, Danny [Downes] fought for you a couple years ago, too.
ROUFUS: Yep. And Red Schafer fought a few fights outside the UFC with us to help build his resume to get back there and keep fighting. Needless to say, it's been fruitful. I've gotta tell you though, this week (end of January) was probably one of the most stressful weeks I've ever had in the fight business. Pascal, he stepped up and improved and did very well. Erik, man, people lose, but it was really hard to see him laying on the mat, bloody. But at the same time I had to run back and be supportive of Anthony [Pettis], because it was time to support Anthony.
HANSEN: Was it almost easier for you knowing that you couldn't dwell on Erik, that you had another responsibility to another guy that you love on your team in Anthony that immediately you had to go back out there?
ROUFUS: No. You know what it felt like? You know that scene in Platoon, where they leave Elias on the battlefield? That's how I felt, man, like we were leaving one of our boys behind.
HANSEN: So quite the opposite then.
ROUFUS: Yeah. I had to like not [think about it]. It was tripping up Anthony out for a second, too, it really was. Those guys live together and everything. I had to actually kind of pull Ben Askren away from the side of the cage, like "C'mon Ben, we've gotta go." The two most shaken up guys about it were Ben and Anthony, even after the fight. I was with Anthony doing the media, and Ben came over and said 'we need you to sign off so Erik can go get observed at the hospital.' So I came and I walked Erik to the ambulance, and we both were kind of walking arm and arm, and we both had a good cry, it was hard. No one wants to see someone you love - some of my guys are young enough that they're almost like my kids - it was very traumatic. I reached the highest of the highs and lowest of the lows.
HANSEN: About twenty minutes apart too.
ROUFUS: I've gotta say I probably got Anthony pretty riled up. I was kind of like in that scene from the Patriot when Mel Gibson goes off when his kid dies. With Anthony there and the build up of what Donald [Cerrone] had said to Anthony. That's the thing, Donald said 'hey, whatever, I was just saying that to get the fight.' Well, you know what? So what. You insulted the man and he obviously showed you how he felt. To Donald's credit, most people wouldn't do what he did on Twitter. He sent a really classy Tweet to Anthony saying 'thanks for the humbling experience.' I take my hat off to Donald Cerrone. I'm not saying we're going to be on Christmas card lists and we're gonna be best buddies, but the point was proven and it was over.
HANSEN: And there was a show of respect at the end, so what can you do except tip your hat and move on, right?
ROUFUS: Yeah, move on, exactly. That's the other thing, too. I'm a sportsman, but at the same time I'm not trying to be best friends with everyone in the UFC, because guess what? I'm here to kick your ass, guys. My fighters are here to kick your ass. Some people mistake me, like 'why don't you want to hang out?' Well, you know what, I'm here to win wars. The last thing I heard we don't play in the UFC, we fight in the UFC. Not me, we, but the fighters. They're here to reach their goals and become champions, nothing more, nothing else. We're in the fight business, not the friend business. I'm not saying I'm a jerk, but I'm a little distant and some people don't understand that about me. I'm not here to sing "Kumbaya" and make friends, that's what my family and friends are for back home. For me, this is serious as a heart attack. Look what happened, one missed step in a fight that Erik had, the collateral damage is astronomical. I take that hard. I hate losing, but I'm taking it hard because I feel responsible as a coach. Maybe it's my Catholic guilt growing up, but every time a kid loses on my team, I feel wholeheartedly responsible. I don't take it well. I take the blame first, so it's tough.
HANSEN: Anything to do to shield your boys, right?
ROUFUS: Yeah. At the end of the day, we talked yesterday and today, he is tougher than tough. If anyone's going to bounce back, it is Alan and it is Erik. I believe in potential, and I believe in hard work, and great attitudes and champion mindsets. It's not where you start, it's where you finish in this whole thing. When I started, no one believed that I was going to have even a small percentage of the success I had as a fighter. I was counted out at a young age. You know what? I took my beatings, I came back. I won, I came back, and I won more, and I got going. It just comes down to intestinal fortitude.
HANSEN: Obviously Donald Cerrone provided a lot of pre-fight motivation for Anthony, but in the last week or two before the fight, did the UFC's decision to give Gilbert Melendez a title shot before Pettis even got his chance to prove his viability for that slot, did that provide some extra motivation or was it just a non-issue?
ROUFUS: No, man. You want to know what motivation is? Anthony right now is in a stage in his life, he's like the movie Cinderella Man. The motivation for him is milk. It's all about putting food on the table for his little daughter, taking care of his family. He recently was able to buy a nice home for his family, move his mother in with him. His daughter lives with him, his brother lives with him. He's a class act. I wish I could have been like him and give what he gives back for everything. He went from being in the hood to being good. He doesn't need that motivation necessarily. Right now, he wants to get where he needs to go. If that's being a champion, or running out his contract out and renegotiate a UFC contract, it doesn't matter. The title will come when you're great, you just focus on greatness. When you're great, the title will find you… He just wants to fight, honestly. He just wants to make a living for his family. He wants to be the best prize fighter, and if being the best prize fighter means he's a world champion, great. You've just got to work for those type of situations to happen. If it doesn't happen right away, it'll happen eventually.
HANSEN: You've got a knack for envisioning in advance how Anthony wins his fights. Did you see liver kick in advance or is that something he saw through the course of the fight?
ROUFUS: Well, Anthony's really focused. A lot of people, they talk about Anthony's Tae Kwon Do. He's awesome at Tae Kwon Do. But a lot of people don't realize, I've been doing Tae Kwon Do, Kempo Karate, since I was four years old, too, so I know how to blend it with boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai, and MMA striking. So the key with Anthony, what he's got going for him, he has the flash and dexterity of Tae Kwon Do, but he's gotten really awesome at Muay Thai. Really awesome. And he kicks really hard. No one's ever done that to Donald Cerrone… Anthony's starting to kick like a Thai. Kicking like a Thai means very, very, hard, heavy kicks… Anthony's really picked my brain, and as well he's boxing real good. That's the thing, he is a complete stand up martial artist, and he's almost there with his ground game too. Actually I had to get a massage this morning and go to the chiropractor, he kicks so darn hard for a guy his size.
HANSEN: Anthony, Erik, and Allen have had their various struggles with injuries over the last couple of years. Dana White has had a couple of quotes over the last six months or so, putting it on super camps and the way fighters are training. Based off his quotes, do you agree with his statements, and why do you think there are so many injuries right now in this era of the sport?
ROUFUS: Couple things; I actually answered on the underground about this. First, the culture of MMA is based on wrestling first. Wrestling rooms, a bunch of wrestlers get together for the wrestling team, they put together a badass group of guys and they go. What are the main injuries? Knees, legs, guys are barefoot and sweaty. That's a lot of the injuries that are occurring. Shoulders from wrestling. Sometimes broken hands, broken legs. It's just hard when you have sweaty mats. You've got to be precautionary when you're wrestling so you don't roll over someone's leg like Rashad [Evans] did. It's very hard to build a camp. Who can afford to bring in hand picked sparring partners? Only the elite level of the UFC, really. I believe, one thing with our camp is I do a huge amount of drilling with our guys. Drills make skills and habits. We spar, but, the key with sparring which a lot of people don't understand is getting good at defense. That's why boxers call sparring work. Most boxers who fight are really good at defense, where a lot of guys still struggle in MMA at defense, which is why they're still getting hurt while they're striking. It's a different mindset if that makes sense. I would love to be able to hand pick guys all over the sport, Brock Lesnar did that, but it takes a war chest to do that as well.
HANSEN: Who's the best defensive standup fighter?
ROUFUS: Right now, Anderson Silva.
HANSEN: Yeah, I suppose that was a gimme with head movement like that and footwork like that.
ROUFUS: I think Anthony Pettis is creeping into that territory, I mean who's ever put their gloves on Pettis?
HANSEN: The second round of the [Ben] Henderson fight is the last time I ever remember him getting hit at all.
ROUFUS: That's one thing. I fought from age 18-38. You don't do that by not being good at defense. I learned at age 25 that being in the fight of the night is not my goal. It's either knockout of the night or domination points and decision in kickboxing. By not getting beat up. Being fight of the night is great, I'll accept it, but I'd prefer to be the guy that does the hitting, not getting hit. It's something I'm a big professor of. I don't believe in taking senseless abuse, and that's how you last long in this business. Anderson, [Lyoto] Machida, guys of that nature. It's so important to have very good defense. That's the one thing, you don't see a lot of our guys taking a butt whooping on their feet. You want to not get knocked out, you want to not get beat up. It's hard to come back. Living or dying by the knockout sword is not a great way to go through your career. You can only get knocked out so many times before you get brain damage.
HANSEN: Yeah, the chin, those hit points - if you want to talk video games - don't regenerate. There are no power ups, you only get so many hits to the chin and then you're done.
ROUFUS: No. No. Even in training, in light training, don't practice taking shots. A lot of guys go into the gym, it's a machismo thing, and you just build bad habits. If you want to know the real Roufusport style, it's not getting hit. I'm going to train Muay Thai with my fight team here in a bit and I'm going to spar with them, and I don't get hit flush a lot. It's one of those things I learned in Thailand, I also boxed with some of the better boxing guys. It's how you last. Your brains get scrambled otherwise. I'm not the best looking guy, somehow I ended up with my wife, I don't know what happened but I didn't get beat up enough. You want to take care of yourself. I'm a big defensive guy. That's the thing, I haven't had a lot of guys get knocked out in the UFC, knock on wood.
HANSEN: Duke, thank you so much for your time. Last thing, man to man, how's fatherhood treating you?
ROUFUS: It's the greatest thing ever. I love it. Anyone who's against me, fear me, because having a daughter has made me up my game. Being a parent has made me just want it more than I can breathe right now. I do everything for my wife and daughter. I love being able to provide a happy home for them. It's the best thing ever. It really is.
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Jamie Penick, editor-in-chief
(mmatorcheditor@gmail.com)
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