What about Nate Marquardt vs. Vitor Belfort? I've been thinking about this one. With Dan Henderson in a contract dispute and Anderson Silva reluctant to fight and with recovery from surgery It makes sense as a no. 1 contender fight. We don't need Silva vs. Belfort at UFC 108 if Carwin and Lesnar are fighting. Save Silva for a main event. Not to mention of course that Marquardt vs Belfort would make an awesome fight. It would have to be the new main event for UFC 106 though.

If that doesn't work out, they could bump the Lil Nog UFC debut forward. I know a lot of people would like to see him... At least I really want to see him.

As someone who has been sick for several weeks in a row, I can honestly say that you DON"T KNOW that you are going to be sick that long. If Brock felt a little better one day, thinking he WAS getting better, he may have went to the Vikings game to get a break from feeling rotten. Since he's never been sick like that before, he didn't KNOW (at the time) that he wasn't getting better. He didn't know because most people don't normally get a virus (or a series of viruses) that make them sick for a month or longer. But NOW he knows.

Instead of wondering about "the points" in this ridiculously asinine commentary, I'm wondering if Brock will be ready for the fight in two months. What he has might take him even LONGER to recover from.

An equally dumb question would be, "If Brock KNEW he was going to have a fight in less than a month, why did he decide to get sick, NOW?"

(I'm HOPING you can see that last question is dumb...)

I'm glad someone else posted so now my comments won't have to be so long.

My wife and I are never sick, but we got some kind of weird virus earlier this year that kept us out of work for two weeks. The next Saturday we went out shopping all day feeling much better. That Monday we caught something else and were sick for another 3 weeks. We had never been sicker and we never saw it coming. No one does.

That Brock Lesnar went out and did something after two full weeks of feeling sick doesn't surprise me. We all do that, especially if we're feeling better.

If "the average fan on the street" doesn't understand that, I don't care and neither should Brock Lesnar. The "average fan" doesn't even know who Shane Carwin is.

Brock's reputation is what it is. You either love him or hate him, and him being sick isn't going to change anyone's opinion on that matter.

I'm just bummed I have to wait so much longer to see him fight again.

I kind of have to laugh at the idea that Lesnar's camp didn't show much "forethought" on this.

What were they supposed to do, tie him down in bed and have his mommy watch him?

Good grief! He's the most dangerous man on the planet and if he feels like watching a football game today, he's going to watch a football game today.

> Brock may not care what people think, but he needs to.

Really? Brock "needs" to care what people think about him? Really?

Why's that? Because if he doesn't care what people think about him, then he won't care about your stupid article? Then he won't care about what YOU think, and that'll make you feel small? That's a bit closer to the truth, don't you think, random internet guy?

First, as the previous comments state, it's very reasonable for sickness to fluctuate. Over the summer, I was sick, then I felt better and had to go to the store and stop by my work. I even thought about going to work that night, but didn't. After only being out for a couple hours, I felt worse than the previous days.

Secondly, it's been reported on how Brock's never been this sick in his life, but does it really matter how sick he is? Fighting involves physical activity. The energy it takes to go to a Vikings game is not the same as it takes to fight. Look at Nogeuira against Mir. He wasn't full health to fight, but does that mean that he couldn't have gone to a football game? I doubt it.

If a fighter doesn't feel healthy enough to fight, they shouldn't. I want to see fighters that are 100%, not fatigued and with excuses to make afterward. This is especially true with title fights. There would be zero benefit to Carwin beating a sick Lesnar for the title. Not only would it be unfair to Lesnar, it would be unfair to Carwin if he were to win the title under such questionable circumstances.

The last thing I would address is the notion of Brock "ducking" someone. From everything I've seen from Brock over the years, and everything that's been seen in the UFC, what would give anyone the impression that Lesnar would ever duck someone? Lesnar is supremely, and evidently confident (even to the point of being labeled arrogant). I cannot picture Lesnar thinking that he could lose to any fighter, especially enough to duck the fighter. I seriously, seriously doubt Lesnar thinks anything other than that he's the best fighter in the world and could beat any fighter on the planet.

We've all be sick. And we've all gone out sick. Doesn't mean you're healthy.

If he's sick to the point that his MMA training takes a hit, then why not call off the fight, if it's too close to fight time?

Ducking Shane? He still fights him later.

To Cole- That all sounds good to me

To Mr. Insight- You don't think it looks bad that Brock is too sick to train, but goes to a football game where's he's shaking hands and taking pictures and all that? You don't think that's bad P.R.?

To me- First off, I'm not a "random internet guy". I've put myself out there on numerous issues. That's my real picture up there at the head of this article. I'm not hiding anything, or hiding behind anything, "me". Secondly, Brock needs to care about what other people think because the fans pay the bills. If those fans think you're scared, than they won't pay to see you fight. If you disrespect the fans, they won't be fans for long.

To finish, didn't you guys read the article? I clearly stated that I didn't think Brock was ducking Carwin. I merely stated that it looks bad for him to postpone a fight because he's been sick a week after he did some P.R. stuff at a football game.

If you guys don't think this is an issue then you obviously don't watch ESPN or check out other sporting news websites. Step outside the MMA bubble, and you'll find that a lot of people were suspicious. The casual MMA fans are the ones that the UFC is targeting now. They're the ones that popped the buyrate for UFC 100 to over 1.5 million. Ask Dana White what he thinks and you might feelt differently.

I hope this becomes a big controversy. I personally think he wants Brock and A. Silva on one card. He probably wants to shatter PPV records or something.

In answer to Mr. Hyden.

P.R. is overrated Every time Brock fights the buyrate soars. People will either pay to see him win or pay to see him lose, but they will pay either way.

If Brock continues to WIN his fights, people will continue to pay to see him. The only thing Brock should care about is winning his next fight. Winning will take care of everything.

Mohamed Ali, early in his career, was considered a draft dodger with a big mouth and many old school boxing fans hated him. He originated PPV just so people could watch him get beat. Controversy sells fights and match-ups way more than P.R.

I never mentioned the "ducking issue" in my missive, but YOU brought up the topic. Bringing it up and then saying "you never said" is a cop out. If you didn't think it was an issue then you should never have brought it up in the first place. Only poor writers set up strawman arguments just to look good defeating them.

Jared brought it up in his post and THE WAY HE HANDLED IT made him much more professional than you.

We don't care if think you are an overwhelming internet presence, we care what you wrote. And you didn't write about it very well.

OF COURSE "the media" is going to comment on this and make it an issue. That's what they do. That's what they all do. And people who write and talk for a living understand the concept of controversy. Nancy Grace has made a good living off of it. That doesn't mean that what she says is in any way right.

The person who gave you the headline on this post did the very same thing, and it got us all to notice it. That's why we're exchanging words right now. That's how it works. Learn that and you might actually "get" what you are so poorly attempting to currently do.

Frank Hyden says (in summary) that Brock Lesnar should have planned his unexpectedly long illness better for P.R. reasons.

We all told him that sickness doesn't work that way.

Instead of admitting that he was obviously wrong here, he persists in his bad argument that a UFC champion out shaking hands and greeting fans is somehow BAD P.R. In a sport that actually has its athletes mention how much they enjoy hearing their opponent's bones snap, I think what Brock did was pretty normal. People TAKING it the wrong way (like Frank) are the ones we shouldn't worry about.

That should have been the gist of the article. It wasn't.

Maybe you'll think your arguments through a little better next time. Because none of these made any real sense, especially in light of the well thought out responses.

Is there a place I can start a forum for people who like to talk about MMA who aren't absolute jerks to each other? I mean come on guys, let him have his opinion and if he's wrong he's wrong. It's fine to disagree, but the disrespect I'm seeing on this forum is un needed.

I think everyone was playing very nice until Frank accused everyone of not reading what he said and then going on to tell us to get out of our MMA bubble. (Basically assuming we have no life and don't watch any other sports.)

I still think the rest of us ARE playing nice.

We want Frank to be BETTER at what he does. We're even telling him HOW he might accomplish that.

Frank disrespected Lesnar, his handlers, and us readers, all in one small article and short follow-up.

What I hate about these forums is that NO ONE ever admits when they are wrong. They'll stick with a bad opinion and defend it to the death rather than admitting they made a mistake. And then they'll insult the people who respond to their opinion without ever acknowledging that some of what they said made sense.

Case in point: Brock got sick. He didn't know it was going to be the worst sickness of his life. He didn't know how long it would last, and during that sickness he visited with Viking fans on a much needed day out. Several people made that point.

Frank's stoic reply. "You don't think that's bad P.R?"

No we didn't, and we said so, and we said WHY we said so. But he ignored us and kept repeating what he heard other people say on other news outlets.

He didn't acknowledge any opinion other than his own. (Even though he was looking pretty foolish to most of the people still reading this.)

Discussion is give and take. Jared is probably best at that on this site. All the opinion writers should take a look at what he does and try to emulate that.

For the record, I have no idea who Jared is, and I usually disagree with much that he has to say, but I love the way he thinks through his opinions before offering them.

That's what I want from a forum like this.

And I thank Cole as well for pointing out that we might have went to far in our discussion of Frank. That was not my intention, even though I thought it was pretty plain he insulted most who replied to him.

Meh, It happens.

Lets talk about fun stuff, like Franks question of what kind of bout could beef up the 106 card. What did anyone else think about my Marquardt/Belfort idea?

To Mr. Insight- You think P.R. is overrated, I don't. We disagree, and that's fine. I base my opinion on the advice of several friends who work in several different industries, and my own experiences.
I brought up the ducking issue because this is my blog, where I discuss things on my mind. I heard somebody say that they thought Brock was ducking Carwin, and I just wanted to put my opinion out there.
I have never, nor will I ever, think I'm an "overwhelming internet presence". I'm just a guy. The point I was making is that it's really easy to say something behind a veil of anonymity. I don't do that. Every article I've ever written on this site is under the name Frank Hyden, my real name.

To Trend Tracker- I never said that Brock should have planned his illness better for P.R. reasons. I said that it wasn't good P.R. for Brock to go to a Vikings game when he's sick as hell.
And to follow up on you saying that everyone else was playing nice. Here's what people wrote before my first comment-
"this ridiculously asinine commentary"
"your stupid article"
And my MMA bubble comment wasn't a shot at you guys having no lives. Rather, it's more about stepping outside of your own experiences and trying to see things from a different perspective. When you're a hardcore fan, you see things differently than a casual fan does. It's no better or worse, it's just different. Hardcore MMA fans don't think Brock is ducking Carwin. Casual fans might, though. And they're the ones that the UFC is targeting right now. Hardcore fans buy the PPV's all the time, casuals don't. That's why UFC 100 did a higher buyrate than UFC 99. Brock Lesnar got those casual fans to buy that show, when they wouldn't have otherwise. Therefore, if casual fans think Brock is ducking Carwin, there's a chance that they won't want to buy his next fight. Has it happened? No. Will it happen? Probably not, but it could. And when you're in the business of making money, you have to try to eliminate all possibilities of losing money.

Let me ask you guys something- let's say that Kurt Warner had to pull out of the Super Bowl last year on the Monday before the game, citing illness. However, days before this announcement he was seen at a basketball game, shaking hands and looking fine. You don't think people would criticize him for that? Maybe I watch too much SportsCenter, but I guarantee you that they would eviscerate him for that.

I asked a MMA trainer what he thought about this. He told me, "If Brock's too sick to train, he sure as hell shouldn't be at some stupid-ass football game." This guy's been in MMA for years, I trust his opinion.

You know what, guys? I think I'm just going to focus on more positive things right now. Normally, I love a good debate, but I have some other issues I have to deal with right now.
You guys can go ahead and make your counter-points, I always read every comment.

I've been trying to follow this thread for a couple days now, and I still don't have any idea how Frank could still have the opinion that he has.

If Kurt Warner was feeling good and doing things (like normal people do) one day and then finds himself sick a week later (so that he couldn't play) are we supposed to think people should/will criticize him for that?

My answer is no, of course not. Why would anybody think that? Everybody does normal things every day. And sometimes they get sick, later. If he's sick, he's sick. Nothing he did a week earlier caused it. He just got sick.

You "guarantee that people on SportsCenter would eviscerate him for that?"

Are you kidding us?! What is wrong with you?

We're not talking about a guy who partied all night and didn't bother sleeping for 4 days straight. We're talking about a guy who went to watch a football game for a few hours and was nice to fans. You still somehow think that is BAD P.R.? Listen to yourself.

This debate ended before your last 2 posts, Frank. Actually, I think you just gave everyone else bonus points with your last two replies. I'm glad you're on to doing something else now because (as was pointed out earlier) you really won't change your mind, even when you are obviously wrong.

I'm just hoping that Lesnar is feeling good enough to train now so that he's ready for his next fight. I don't want anything to interfere with that.

I do agree with you on one point. 106 doesn't look like much as it stands now.

In most industries P.R. is a lifeblood. In UFC? Not so much. I like the point made earlier about MMA fighters relishing the breaking of their opponents bones during post-fight interviews. I've seen a fight like that and IF THAT doesn't produce bad enough publicity to get noticed, a fighter being legitimately nice to fans sure won't. I feel sorry for Brock getting so sick for so long that he actually had to delay a fight that we were all looking forward to. And I feel even more sorry for him that some people think he should be punished by media for being sick. That's just not cool.

I know the media can be cruel, but worrying about childish, schoolyard "ducking charges" and if a person has a right to do normal activities when he's not feeling well seems above and beyond even for them. If they influence an "average" fan's opinion of Brock, then they have way more power than they should possess and way more persuasive power than the guy who originally wrote this piece. Personally, I think the average fan is smarter than that.

Honestly, I think the "average fan" is someone who likes Brock and wants to see him succeed. Or the "average fan" is someone who hates Brock and wants to see him fail. Brock is pure gold to UFC as long as keeps on winning (and doesn't start a dogfighting ring.)

Brock Lesnar's huge buyrates prove this one way or the other. Only at an MMA website would I get a commentary that says being nice to people, even when you're feeling a bit under the weather, is somehow bad P.R. Talk about hardcore fans who are out of touch with the real world.

If Brock keeps winning, people will keep paying to see him fight. And those people will keep coming back in very large numbers.

I'm a casual fan myself. I'm only here because the PW Torch sent me here and I'm a big fan of Brock.

You still miss the obvious point that everyone has taken so much of their valuable time to point out to you.

Brock wasn't feeling as sick when he went to the Vikings game. (At least it LOOKED like he was feeling better on the video.) He must have thought he was getting better. After two weeks of being sick, that makes total and complete sense. I mean do you usually stay home from work an extra two weeks after you're feeling better just in case you are sicker than you originally thought? No? Of course not, no one does.

That he got sick again, or sicker (depending on what was wrong with him) was not anticipated by him, his crew, his handlers, or his mom. But he DID get sick again and was forced to withdraw from the fight. But he didn't do anything wrong. "P.R." already said it better than me so I won't bother finishing why getting sick isn't wrong and shouldn't be criticized.

Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but be prepared to be criticized, or at least challenged if you think the world is flat and you won't change your mind even if people give you a reasonable reason to think otherwise.

I still can't figure out how sitting at a football game and being nice to fans is bad P. R. Canceling the fight occurred because he didn't get well enough, fast enough. Having "fun" while being sick is one of the best ways to feel and get better.

Why do you think so many clowns hang around hospitals?

Will some small group of people criticize Brock for being sick and postponing the fight? I suppose a few might. But the point is, and has always been, that those people and their opinion really don't (and shouldn't) matter. They are small people. No one should live their lives to suit their small opinions, even if potential P.R. is somehow at stake.

And could you please tell me a specific example of someone from ESPN eviscerating someone for being sick? I literally have ESPN on most of the day (I work at home) and I've never seen any of their guys being that shallow.

MMA is something I enjoy once in awhile, but most of my time is spent reporting on baseball and football. (Primarily compiling stats.) That's what I do for a living. My bubble has only recently expanded to UFC. I guess you could call me an average fan, too. I came here from the PW Torch, too, since they don't let us comment over there anymore.

If Warner was seen at a football game before the announcement of being sick, would he be eviscerated for that or should he be? My opinion, he shouldn't be. You can be under the weather and then get worse. Had he made the announcement of not playing, and then was seen out in public, that would be cause for criticism. Would he be eviscerated? It wouldn't surprise me, but I don't think it would be warranted, and I would hope ESPN has someone employed with enough common sense to explain why he shouldn't be.

I know it was just an example, but team sports is different from MMA. Warner or Kobe or A-Rod playing sick wouldn't affect the outcome as much as a singular person trying to win being sick. At least in the former, the sick competitor has healthy teammates that can hopefully make up for the sick teammates deficiencies. Brock would have no such luxury. An MMA fighter not being 100% has no one to make up for that. And that's why I think being sick holds more weight in MMA. You are literally risking a loss if you fight sick, whereas team sports aren't as much and can substitute if needed.

"I asked a MMA trainer what he thought about this. He told me, 'If Brock's too sick to train, he sure as hell shouldn't be at some stupid-ass football game.'"

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Brock training in the past couple weeks? I read that he was training, but they didn't feel it was 100% since he wasn't healthy. If you can't train 100%, you surely can't fight 100%. Besides, what's the point of that trainer's statement? If you're well enough to go to a football game, you're well enough to train? Or, if you're not well enough to train, you shouldn't go to a football game? As I've stated, I think there are degrees in sickness. In my opinion, well enough to go out in public does not equal well enough to run, lift weights, spar or full on fight.

In fairness to the trainer, I don't know the full reasoning for the quote so it's hard to agree or disagree with him, but does it really matter what any trainer but Brock's says? If you're not working with Brock everyday and experiencing how sick or how healthy he's been the past couple weeks, how can you judge how what activities he is capable of, or what he should or shouldn't be doing? If Brock had been training, even lightly, would it make much sense to say "you're well enough to train, but not well enough to sit in an arena and watch a football game?"

We don't know how Brock's felt everyday for the past couple weeks, and we don't know what he's been up to everyday. Any trainer or casual fan can speculate to how sick or not sick Brock is/was, but it's all speculation. No one knows for sure except Brock and his camp, so I think it's unreasonable to stand back from a distance and judge what should have or shouldn't have been done. As far as I'm concerned, posing the question "should he have been at the game?" is fine, but "he shouldn't have gone to the game" isn't because it implies firsthand knowledge that most don't have.

I'm so disappointed I missed all the action up until now. These are the kind of discussions I can really sink my teeth into.

I know I'd much rather watch a football game when I'm sick than go all out training in MMA. I think it would be better for me as well. Less activity would help the immune system recover faster. What trainer doesn't know that?

I'm going with the masses on this one, and I really wish Frank would consider doing an about face on the subject as well.

We'd all respect him more if he did.

It doesn't matter if anyone likes him. As long as he keeps destroying everyone put in front of him, nothing anyone thinks of him matters. You only have to care about what people think if you aren't on top of the heap.

What are they going to do? Strip the champ of his title because people don't like him? That's absurd.

I agree with Frank here, guys. Anthony Johnson just fought at UFC 104, yet he took a fight with Josh Koscheck on short notice for UFC 106. That's also short notice for Koscheck as well.
Guys take fights on short notice all the time. It's ok for them, but not okay for Brock?

My friend Jim pointed me here.
Sounds like you guys are being hard-headed. I think Frank's making a valid point. Tyson fought all the time (when he was younger), even when he was sick.
Let me tell you something, you don't postpone a fight that's been months in the making just because you're sick. If you're sick when it's time to fight, that's a different story. But just because you've been sick in the weeks leading up to the fight, you don't cancel. You suck it up and you play hurt.
Frank Mir was hurt when he fought Brock the second time. Nogueira was sick in the weeks leading up to some of his fights. Fighters are sick and injured in all their fights. No one's ever 100%. There's no exceptions.
Brock shouldn't have postponed, period.

Welcome to the discussion guys. One question, when did fighting on short notice come up? Frank's article was about the theory of Brock ducking Carwin, and I don't recall anyone saying anything about fighting on short notice.

That said, since you brought it up, I'll address it with my opinion on it. First, fighting on short notice is different than fighting at less than 100% due to illness. Secondly, I disagree with George when it comes to whether fighters should fight sick. You brought up Nogueira being sick, and I think the Nogeuira-Mir fight is a perfect example of why fighters shouldn't fight sick. Nogueira was not himself that night, and I think because of that, the fight was rendered relatively useless. A win's a win, but I don't think Mir's win holds nearly the weight it did at the time after seeing Nogueira fight healthy at 102.

After 102, the majority wanted to see a rematch between Mir and Nogueira. And it wasn't just to see two top tier fighters square off, it was to see how valid the first fight was. Mir has defended his victory because he knows that people reacted with a "was it legitimate" sentiment. That's why I think think fighters shouldn't fight less than 100%. It's not fair to the unhealthy fighter as well as the healthy fighter, because the victory will be seen with an asterisk.

I already stated this, but I think it's even more important with title fights. Lesnar shouldn't risk his title just because it's been planned for months. And it's not fair to Carwin if he were to win the title with Brock not 100%. People wouldn't take Carwin's victory seriously if he beat a weakened opponent. A title victory is only seen as valid as the circumstances it was won under.

And please remember that the second Mir fight with Lesanar was delayed because Mir was not 100%.

You don't fight hurt and you don't fight sick (unless you really WANT to or need the money.) And if you do, as Jared already pointed out, you'll probably lose.

If Brock fights twice a year for 5 more years, (and that seems about what Dana is planning at this point) he only has 10 fights left. I don't want him wasting any of them. I want to see him at his best.

I wouldn't want to pay for anything less than that.

George-

I'm not really sure where the idea "you play when you're hurt and suck it up" came from but it probably came from the same coaches who don't let their kids drink water while they are in football practice to "toughen them up." Both ideas are part of the antiquated old school philosophy that should have no place in modern day sports, especially sports like boxing and MMA where it's one-on-one.

Kirk Gibson once hit a homerun in a pinch-hit situation to win a historical baseball game, but he wasn't asked to play the WHOLE game.

IF you can play hurt AND CONTRIBUTE to your team and help them win, that's okay. But if you can't come close to giving 100% for at least part of the competition, you shouldn't be out there at all. In an MMA fight you need to be close to 100% going in or it's going to be a short fight.

Along that same philosophy, when Frank Shamrock once had his arm broken by a stiff kick, in an MMA fight, he should have "sucked it up" and kept fighting in the next round instead of quitting between rounds. I mean, there was only one round left. He could have sucked it up like a man, right?

Playing hurt doesn't make you look tough, it makes you look stupid. Continuing that fight would be no smarter than starting one you are not prepared for.
And a couple dumb fights like that could cost you a career. Dana doesn't let losers hang around very long. Though, I admit, a big name like Lesnar might be given a couple more chances.

Thankfully, Brock is smart enough to know that he shouldn't fight until he's ready. You know, maybe that's why he's the champ.

I see this is still going. Good.

First of all, Frank never said Lesnar SHOULD fight Carwin even if he was sick. He said that calling off the fight looked bad considering Brock was enjoying himself at a Viking game a couple weeks before he postponed the fight.

I guess most of thought that it didn't make Lesnar look bad because Brock had no idea he was going to be that sick that long, since none of can know that.

I hope Frank comes back and tells you that you didn't read his article very well, even if you do agree with him.

I always find it amusing when people agree with something that was never said in the first place.

But at least you brought up a new topic of discussion and we all seem to be enjoying that. So thanks!

Did you guys hear the latest? Machida says he "needs" surgery on his hand so we won't see him in a rematch against Shogun in January. People have been seeing him use that hand since the fight so he must be ducking Shogun.

Even if he is hurt, Machida should have just gutted it out and taken the fight. He has almost two months to recover. Everyone else takes fights on short notice. he should, too.

This is bad P.R.

I brought up the short notice thing because it's basically the same thing. Brock hasn't been able to train because he's been sick. That means that he'd only be able to train for a handful of weeks. Anthony Johnson (and Koscheck, too) only has a handful of weeks to prepare for his upcoming fight. That's the correlation.

A win's a win. The Houston Rockets won 2 titles in the 90's, probably because Jordan had retired, but history still shows them as champions. No asterisks there. Randy Couture slipped and got knocked out by Chuck, no asterisks there. Mir's win over Nogueira doesn't have an asterisk. Mir's win over Brock is still a win, despite Brock dominating early.
Pound for Pound, does the name Urijah Faber mean anything to you? You know, the guy that once broke his hand in the 1st round, then hurt the other hand later, having to resort to elbows and such for the rest of the round?. A skilled fighter can overcome injuries.
Forrest Griffin once broke his arm in a fight, but still won.
You guys are just sucking on Brock's knob. Fighters fight hurt all the time, they fight sick all the time. No one's ever 100%. Brock's not this lionheart that you think he is.

Do you guys remember when Mir had to postpone his fight with Brock at UFC 98, because of knee surgery? Do you remember what Brock said?

"I'm a little disappointed that it got pushed back," Lesnar said in a recent appearance on HDNet's "Inside MMA". "In my mind, is Frank really hurt, or is he just scared?"

That's what he said. So isn't it fair for someone else to say the same thing about Brock, now that he's the one postponing a fight?

Damn, you guys just got served.

*quoting fake Huh?*
"Did you guys hear the latest? Machida says he "needs" surgery on his hand so we won't see him in a rematch against Shogun in January. People have been seeing him use that hand since the fight so he must be ducking Shogun.

Even if he is hurt, Machida should have just gutted it out and taken the fight. He has almost two months to recover. Everyone else takes fights on short notice. he should, too.

This is bad P.R."

Do not listen to this imposter. He is clearly an asshat trying to ruin my good name with his pathetic attempts at snarky humor. Fake Huh?, I banish you back to the poetry slam at the coffee shop, where you and your other poser friends can try to make wry remarks about those less socially awkward than you.

To the real "Huh?"

Sorry, I had no idea you existed. I'll gladly call myself 'The Fake Huh?" if you want.

I guess the point of all of this is that "fighting hurt" or "fighting sick" isn't very bright, even if it wasn't the main point of the original discussion. Yes, Griffen won a fight once with a broken arm but he's the first to admit he would not have come out for the next round if the fight hadn't ended when it did. (It's been quoted in several sources so you can all google it if you want.) He was smart enough to KNOW he would not have continued.

Urijah Faber is actually the best example of stupidity that I can think of so I'm glad his name was brought up. He did keep fighting. He lost. And now he's going to miss several months of his career because of the extensive surgery that was needed to repair the excessive damage he did to himself during those last rounds. He may never be able to fight well again. Only time will tell.

As to "lots of fighters fight hurt and when they are not 100%." Yes they do, and we have a word for them. Losers.

Are any of you who are still reading this going to tell us you would rather have a fight scheduled earlier with sick or hurt fighters rather than wait for a later date so that you can see them at the top of their game?

Would you rather have Urijah Faber go out in a stupid blaze of glory or would you rather have him around for a a dozen or more fights over the next few years?

One more point and then I'll probably just quit.

Brock Lesnar can imply that Mir was ducking him. That's the best part of pre-fight trash talk. That's what fighters do to build controversy. If Carwin wants to do the same thing with Brock now and call him a "girly man" that's even better.

When WE say that as fans, we just come out sounding like marks or smarks. Take your choice.

I see what you're saying but it's really not a correlation. Most of the better UFC fighters keep themselves in good shape so that if they need to take a fight in 4-6 weeks, they can. It's a more a matter of watching film and getting in a little better shape to get themselves ready. But some won't do that because they know they need more time to prepare. (If your career depends on saying "yes" to Dana when he calls you probably aren't going to say "no" when the call comes.) It depends on how much pull you have.

A sickness, on the other hand, may make that much more difficult. Unless someone has more real news on the current Brock situation, he may or may not be training all-out right now.

It's possible that he would have been near 100% by the time the fight rolled around. But he wasn't willing to take that chance, and by calling it off early it at least gave Dana White a chance to put together something else for the card.

Brock is the biggest cash cow UFC has ever had. Dana isn't going to do anything to mess this up.

"Mir's win over Nogueira doesn't have an asterisk."

Really? Then why has Mir defended his victory in interviews? Because he knows the public sentiment after 102 was "was Mir's victory a fluke?" Also, if Mir and Nogueira fight again and Nogueira wins, then his victory will have an asterisk in the minds of fans.

Randy-Chuck is a little different because Chuck beat him twice. If Randy beat Chuck, then Chuck beat Randy cause he slipped, then Randy beat Chuck again, I think there would be an asterisk on Chuck's victory.

"A skilled fighter can overcome injuries." So every fighter that hasn't overcome injury, including the aforementioned Faber, is not skilled?

"Fighters fight hurt all the time, they fight sick all the time." I don't think that's necessarily true, and just cause it happens sometimes, doesn't make it ok. Remember After Couture beat Sylvia and Sylvia said something about injuries in his post-fight interview? Immediately the fans started booing. Sylvia tried to retract it by saying he wasn't trying to take anything away from Randy, when in theory he was by making excuses for losing. If you're healthy enough to fight, you're healthy enough to lose. No one wants to see someone fight through an injury or sickness and then say "oh, well I was battling back injuries" or "I wasn't 100% leading into the fight." Excuses are lame, and fighters fighting with injury or sickness just gives them an excuse to lose.

This isn't just for Brock. If any fighter doesn't feel like they can perform at the top of their game, they shouldn't. When Mir postponed the fight, it sucked, but I didn't think he was ducking Brock or that he shouldn't have postponed the fight. Postponing fights sucks, but it's better than watching a fighter under-perform. I'd rather wait until January to see Lesnar-Carwin at the top of their games, then see it now under under questionable circumstances.

Also, what about Ed Herman's fight at 102? I for one was not comfortable watching him continue with an injury. I feel that it was irresponsible of the referee to let him continue, and I think it was reckless of Herman to continue and incur a greater injury. I want to see healthy fighters beat healthy fighters. I don't want to see healthy fighters beat weakened fighters or see injured fighters gut it out. The fighters health should come first and foremost.

To "The Fake Huh?' who didn't know there was a "Real Huh?"

Your observations and points are much better and funnier than the the original "Huh?"

Keep 'em coming. But call yourself something else, you don't want to be mistaken for him. (I know I wouldn't.)

Mr. Insight, how dare you accuse The fake Huh? of being funny? He's being 100% serious and he think he's joshing around?
-1 to you, my friend, -1.

Mir doesn't have to defend his win over Nogueira. Maybe he did short-term, but he doesn't have to do that now. Enough time has passed that most people aren't thinking about that. It only shows up as a win in the record books.

To "The Real Huh"

I have to admit, you are pretty funny yourself. Keep 'em coming my friend. Keep 'em coming.

To George

Wouldn't you like to see Mir vs Nogueira again knowing both really are healthy and not sick? I know I would. In the back of most of ours minds there will always be that nagging doubt that the outcome could have been different. As most of these posts prove, most of us rarely forget about this kind of stuff.

Just cause most people aren't thinking about it regularly, doesn't mean most people have forgot about it. How long did it take you to think of Liddell-Couture 3? That was over 3 and 1/2 years ago. You may not think about it regularly, but I bet it didn't take hours to think of. It's not too difficult to remember wins that weren't unquestionable. People may not think about Mir-Nogueira on a regular basis, but I don't believe the majority consider it a settled issue.

The record books only get you so far. I'm sure Bisping is happy with the Hamill decision, but what the record books say has no influence on the fans' perception of that fight. Record books just show the results, they don't validate them. Unlike Mark Coleman, I don't consider an accidental arm break a victory. In my mind, Coleman never beat Shogun, Okami never beat Silva and Fedor's undefeated even though the record books would disagree on all counts.

Frank

We know you said you were going to keep following this thread. We're still waiting for the specific example of an ESPN personality eviscerating someone for being sick.

Since so much of your original point about Brock being sick and going to a Viking game was supposed to bring about bad press by big name media, we think you still owe us that. Especially when you "guaranteed" us this would/does happen, and no one else has come up with an example either.

If you are still addressing other issues, we understand. But we still await a real specific answer.

If you've changed your mind on the issue, that's okay, too. But let us know. Thanks.

This had been a great thread and we do appreciate you starting it.

Well, I'm back.
A couple examples come to mind. One isn't an example of someone being sick, but rather doing something not related to his chosen sport and being ripped for it. I'm talking about Tony Romo going to Cabo in the offweek before a playoff game. It was the whole thing were he was with Jessica Simpson and all that crap. He got torn apart on ESPN, with people saying that he needs to be 100% focused on football and not distractions.
This relates to what we're talking about because Brock did something non-MMA related when he's supposed to be too sick to train. Those ESPN personalities (I could name a long list of them, basically anyone who talked about the NFL a few years ago) tore Romo a new one.
Now you guys kept bringing up that maybe Brock was feeling better, wasn't feeling as sick. That's fine, except for the fact that, if he was feeling better, shouldn't he have been training to try to make up for the lost training time from when he was sick.
And if he was feeling well enough to go to that NFL game, perhaps what caused his illness to return was being around 60,000+ people and shaking hands and blowing into that Vikings horn.
The other example of someone getting ripped for being sick is Donovan McNabb in the Super Bowl. I remember a lot of people bashing McNabb for not being in "gameshape" for the biggest game of his life. Some defended him, but there was also backlash against him. They said that if he was in better shape the Eagles might have won that year.
I've heard a lot of coaches, ex-coaches, players, and ex-players say on ESPN and other sports channels that you need to do anything you can to make sure that you're ready to play before the Super Bowl, NBA Finals, etc.
Michael Jordan played in the NBA Finals with the flu and still kicked ass. Pete Sampras once kept playing even while throwing up on the court.
Athletes don't play injured, but they do play hurt.
I don't have a problem with Brock postponing his fight (other than feeling bad for the fans who already bought tickets), but he shouldn't have gone to the Vikings game then.
When Frank Mir had to postpone his fight with Brock, you didn't see him at a baseball game. Yet Brock still accused Mir of ducking him. Now the shoe's on the other foot, isn't it fair for us to at least question the intelligence of Brock being at that Vikings game?

I don't think you you've been following these posts quite as closely as you thought. But welcome back!!!

Most of what you just discussed was already brought up and dismissed in valid responses by so many of the writers following this thread. In summary:

Let's start with Brock calling out Mir. FIGHTERS are allowed to do this. WRITERS and FANS are not. Fighters then settle this in the ring as part of the ritual of "the hype" to build controversy and get fans to buy the fight. In this example, if Carwin calls him a wimp, a coward, or a "girly man," that's perfectly acceptable. If WE do this we're considered, as "Fake Huh?" so ably pointed out, either marks or smarks. I'm still waiting for Carwin to do this. He'll probably do it closer to the the rescheduled fight to get more buys. That's how it works. They like to take digs at each other, especially when a real dislike develops. They are allowed to, (though sometimes they honestly respect each other and then they don't. That's okay, too.)

As to athletes playing hurt, we've covered that as well. In summary there was a consensus that said if you can still be competitive and help your team, go ahead. We all agreed on that already. And that was one of the original points that no one really disagreed with. We're glad you're with us on that. But for the most part, we said that was okay with TEAM sports. Individual combat competitions like boxing and MMA are a lot different. You don't have a teammate to pick you up. Feeling weak going in could easily be the difference between winning easily and having your butt handed to you. That's why we discussed Mir/Minotauro so much. That's why so many of hated that fight. We didn't get to see both competitors at their best.

Since this post started, more information has come in on the Brock Lester situation. Paul Heyman, a close friend of Lesnar from his pro wrestling days, has said that Lesnar WAS training hard while sick and that he just couldn't recover from his workouts like he normally does. It was only after weeks of this training and fatigue that he called off the fight. That was the only "real" information we have heard. Lesnar was frustrated that training was wiping him out physically and that he was still feeling weak. If you've heard more than that, please share. There is a good chance that he WAS training the day the Vikings played. And if he wasn't, taking days off is both normal and necessary in any kind of training regimen. Your body NEEDS time to recover if you are sick or not. I'm not sure how much training you THINK a person needs in order to be ready to fight, but I am sure Brock does. He's the ONLY one who knows (with the possible exception of HIS trainer(s). Saying YOU (and possibly some other trainer you know that is not currently associated with Brock and his situation) think he should have been training (without knowing what he was doing at the time) is just too big an assumption on your part (or any one else in the media who may agree with you.) And your whole opinion has always been based on that unsubstantiated assumption. That's why we didn't like your supposition and argument. The base, the premise itself, was faulty.

We also ALL agreed that screwing around a week or two before a major event was stupid. We would all mostly agree, for that same reason, that what Romo did was probably too much of a distraction for his team. He could have been brighter. But again, as "Fake Huh" pointed out, (this is a paraphrase) "it's not like Brock was out partying 4 straight nights" before the big fight and then suddenly called it off. He was simply sick. And he very reasonably called it off with as much advance warning as he could give Dana to at least give him, as the promotor, a chance of finding another good fight to replace it. That was a considerate move on Brock's part.

Which leaves us with Donavan McNabb.

The Eagles barely lost and McNabb looked like he was moving in slow motion throughout most of the game, especially the last quarter. Rumors we're flying all over the place. Was he out-of shape? Was he sick with something? Was he just dehydrated? Had the stress of the season with T.O. given him a legitimate mental breakdown?

We'll never know for sure. But the point of this specific example, for me, was that, for whatever reason he wasn't able to perform, he should not have been in there in the first place. And that's what nearly all of the critics were saying. They didn't criticize him for BEING sick, they criticized for PLAYING sick. He should not have been in there, especially at the end, if he wasn't able to perform and help his team. And that's why most of thought Brock did THE RIGHT thing by postponing the fight and allowing himself to get well. We don't want to see him perform is he's not ready to perform. It was a gutsy call by both Brock and Dana. There's always going to be critics who point out things like this to add to their own own reputations. The media, should be praising him for making the right decision. But they won't, because that's not how they make their money. We discussed that already as well.

I am glad you thought of the Mcnabb example, though. I guess we really are on opposite sides of this one. Since you said earlier that you wanted to stick to the"positive side" for awhile, I challenge you do just that. Give Brock the benefit of a doubt and assume he knows his life better than you do, and say what he did was okay by you, even if some nasty, self-seeking media critics may say otherwise. Don't become one of them. Seeking the positive side will be harder if you do.

Take care everybody. I'm outta' here on this one.

That was a pretty good reply, Trend Tracker!

This reply was brought to you by the artist formally know as "The Fake Huh?"

"Huh?" can just call himself "Huh?" again.

I'm done too, this one has went on long enough.

Agreed. I was hoping Frank would have come up with something better in the time he was away. This was fun, though.

The second response on this thread by "Being Sick" asked Frank to look at the possibility that what Lesnar has may actually cause him to miss even more time and delay the fight even longer. He told Frank he was being asinine in his commentary for at least not considering that possibility before making judgement.

Guess what? "Being Sick" was right. Lesnar is seriously sick and no one at this point knows what's wrong with him. The fight with Carwin will now have to be postponed indefinitely.

That's why we were all so upset with Frank in the first place. Maybe he'll realize where we were coming from, now.

I'm done here, too. It's time to start following this development in a more recent article.