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By: Rich Hansen, MMATorch Columnist
Danny Downes was a 6-0 prospect when the WEC gave him the call this summer to take on Chris Horodecki on just days notice at WEC 49 in Edmonton. But while he came up short, losing by submission in the third round, he made an impression and was tapped to meet Tie Quan Zhang on the final ever WEC event, coming tonight on Versus. Downes took some time out of his training at Duke Roufus' gym in Milwaukee, Wis. last week to talk to MMATorch Columnist Rich Hansen about a number of subjects, including his WEC debut, the fight with Zhang, what it's like to be choked out and more.
MMATORCH: What makes a double major in International Affairs and German go into fighting? Is it something you always wanted to do, or is it something you just fell in to?
DANNY DOWNES: Well, I guess it's a little bit of both. If you want to go all the way back to when I was a kid, I was like a book worm. I was a nerdy kid. Obviously, school always came easy to me. I appreciated school and I liked it. I hung out at the library more than the other people, but you know, you always kind of want what you don't have. So I was like 'Ah man, I always wanted to be an athlete. And then you know, as a kid you watch Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and all that stuff. And you're like, I want to be a ninja or something like that, I want to do martial arts.
And my parents never wanted me to do martial arts. It was all school work. Even my grandpa who was a farmer in Ireland who emigrated over here and stuff, he loved boxing... He always tried to get me into the boxing gym where I grew up but my mom wouldn't let him.
I played rugby in high school and in college. And I wanted an activity to do in the offseason. Just to stay in shape, something fun during my first year away from home. And I was going to do martial arts because they wouldn't let me. And I wanted to do something like kickboxing. And I looked up Duke's place online, and I wanted to do that. I didn't want to do a traditional martial art because I was only going to do it for a couple of months. I didn't just want to be a white belt, and you know I wanted to do something a little different.
So I started doing it and I had a great time. I really liked it, it was a good workout, I lost weight, I got in shape. And I really got hooked on it. And I found myself trying to cut rugby practice early so I could catch the bus to get to the late kickboxing class. And I was like, well, if this is what I'm doing, then I should do kickboxing. I was always really competitive. Like, I'm that guy no one likes because even if you do a pickup game, I have to win. You can't even play Scattergories with me at home because I get too upset about it.
And also the rugby team, it was like, "My drinking team has a rugby problem." It was social, but I wanted to compete. And it was bout 2004, around the time of the Ultimate Fighter, so things started to pick up, and it was harder and harder to get Muay Thai fights, so I just kind of went into MMA. I still wanted to compete and have some fights.
So I did that, and after I had a couple fights, it was like "I might as well go pro. If I'm going to do this I might as well get a couple bucks." I was a college student, [so it was] something to make money. So I started doing that and I kept winning, and I kept doing well. And then I was like, "wow, I'm actually kind of pretty good at this."
So it was 2008; I was about to graduate. And I was like, "I really want to do this." I was so passionate, I can't explain it. So I sat down with Duke and I talked to him. I asked him [if he thought] I could do this. I wanted to try to be a pro fighter; not just some guy who has pro fights. Because I trust his opinion; he's been in the business his whole life. He told me I could do it, so I took that blessing and I worked my way up since then.
MMA TORCH: Now, you became known nation-wide by taking a fight against Chris Horodecki for the WEC on three days notice.
DANNY DOWNES: It was like five days notice. The fight was on a Sunday, I found out on it like the Tuesday before that.
MMA TORCH: In retrospect, are you glad that you didn't have six weeks of training and all that to think about it and get completely weirded out? Because the level of competition that you went up from your fights in Wisconsin to Horodecki is a different level, were you happy that you only had five days notice or would you rather have had the full camp?
DANNY DOWNES: You'd like to have the full camp. I would have been in better shape. A lot of things would have gone better. But in a way, you know, there were benefits to having it short. Because like you said, I didn't have time to get freaked out. I had to get my medicals in, I had to get the licensing done. By the time I got to Edmonton and did all the media stuff, it was like, "OK, the weigh-ins are tomorrow." So I didn't have any time to really dwell on it. I remember being in the back, warming up and hitting pads and thinking that I should be a lot more nervous than I am. But it just didn't register. It was something that just kind of got thrown together.
It's easy to be revisionist and say it was a great thing, fighting under those circumstances. But you always want to give yourself the best chance. Especially against someone of Chris Horodecki's caliber. What I tell people, the easiest way to think about it is; the WEC, UFC, Zuffa, whatever it is, they are not waiting for Dan Downes to come to them. They are the highest fighting organization in the world. They can have anyone they want. So when they say "Do you want to fight?", you don't say "Nahhhh. Come back to me later." Because it might be a while again. Even guys that are great, they have no problems cutting them if they don't agree with how they're doing or their attitude or whatever. Look at Gerald Harris, Paul Daley, those are great fighters. They're both a lot more accomplished than I was with my 6-0 record. So they come knocking, I take it.
MMA TORCH: Did they (Zuffa) promise you a second fight win or lose?
DANNY DOWNES: When I signed the contract, it wasn't a one and done contract. Obviously they have the right [to cut], they could do it tomorrow if they wanted. But I think obviously you'd like to think they appreciate and they know kind of what goes in to it. And also I think, because I gave them a fight, I feel like obviously you want to win. I hate to use the term "moral victory" because it sounds like kind of a cop-out. "Well I lost, but I won in a sense." No, a win's a win. I felt good, because I gave Chris Horodecki a fight... I made him earn that win.
The thing I am proudest about that fight, and there's not a lot, is the way I came out in that third round. You know, I was dead tired. I felt awful. I lost like 24 pounds in like four days. I came out there and I gave him a fight. And yeah, he finished me. But, I made him work. He didn't get to coast, you know? He didn't just go through the motions.
MMA TORCH: What's the better feeling: Winning on the small show or losing on the big show?
DANNY DOWNES: You always want to win, but I got into this because I wanted to compete at the highest level. I'd rather go there and risk losing at the highest and tell people that I was a WEC fighter, I was a UFC fighter. I fought the best of the best. Instead of being like, I was an undefeated local Wisconsin guy. Nobody cares about that. That's like saying I was the best pitcher ever in Triple-A. Who wants to be the greatest minor-league baseball player? You know, yeah, there's a sense of accomplishment because minor-league baseball players are good and all. I guarantee you every guy in Triple-A would rather be just a guy on a Major League roster than the ace of their small team.
MMA TORCH: When you lost to Horodecki, it was to a rear naked choke. Is it more pain that gets you to tap, or is it the realization that you're going to sleep? What is the process like?
DANNY DOWNES: Well, it depends on the hold. Like an armbar, your arm's about to break and you know it. But with a choke hold, it's more of a - like, I've been choked out before because I didn't tap in jiu-jitsu tournaments or even just rolling. You get that panic. Kind of like when you stay under water too long and you know like you're not going to drown, but there's that glimpse of panic because you didn't get the air as fast as you wanted. It's kind of like that.
The thing with the Horodecki one was that he got that last takedown and I hit the back of my head on the mat, and I kind of saw stars. That's why it looked like I didn't defend right. And there was this feeling of disgust; I felt so good coming out. I don't know how good I looked, really. But I was feeling awesome. I was going to get him. But then he got me down and he's holding me there and I tried to reach and I realized he had it locked. It's a feeling of helplessness. It's like if you ever had a big brother or cousin pin your arms down and giving you the "stop hitting yourself" thing. You're helpless. And I knew I couldn't go anywhere. He got me.
MMA TORCH: Would you rather tap or be knocked out?
DANNY DOWNES: If you get knocked out and you go out, well, obviously you can help it by having better defense. But it's like your body just shut down. But when you tap out it's a conscious choice. It's a bad feeling to tap out, but you don't have the headache or post-concussion problem, which is never good. You don't get medically suspended [from tapping as opposed to KOd].
But it's the pride thing. But at the same time, it's like whenever you beat someone, you take a piece of their soul. I feel like Chris Horodecki owns a piece of my soul right now.
This is a much more personal sport. The difference between losing a fight and say, If we play golf and you beat me it's like you get upset because you're a competitor, but it's like oh boy, you can hit a white ball with a stick in a hole. But a fight is a fight. You beat me up in front of my friends and my family, and a lot of people watching on tv.
MMA TORCH: Yeah. In interviews they don't say, "He was the better fighter." They say, "He was the better MAN!" And you don’t get that in golf.
DANNY DOWNES: Yeah. And that's why it's so personal. Obviously fighting is a skill, but who cares if you can put a ball in a basket better than me. But [in fighting], you beat me. Even if you want to say it's a primal instinct. It's like you're in a pack and you're the alpha, and I have to submit to you. It's a lot harder to kind of take that as opposed to some other sport loss.
MMA TORCH: Your opponent [at WEC 53] is Zhang Tie Quan, who is somebody that Zuffa would clearly like to see succeed. Do you feel at all like they're [hoping for] you not to win because China's so important to their future? Does that motivate you at all, or do you not care about that?
DANNY DOWNES: Not really. I mean I know that the oddsmakers probably have me as the underdog and all. That's fine. And I know a lot of people are interested in the Chinese market. Economically I understand why Pepsi wants to be in China. I understand why General Motors and all that. Because you've got a giant untapped market. You've got an extra 1.7 billion people to buy your product. But I don't see how that applies to the UFC. How many PPV buys are coming from Shanghai?
Look at the Bisping thing. Having someone like Michael Bisping helps them in the UK because he's a UK fighter and people can rally behind him. But I don't see how this kind of applies to China. And also, they can sell tickets; they can make money with anyone. So yeah, maybe having a Chinese fighter better helps them, but I don't see it. I know people think it's a trap fight; that I’m getting set up. I don't know. It doesn't enter my mind that much.
MMA TORCH: I suppose you've got other things to think about.
DANNY DOWNES: Yeah. And the main thing is, at the end of the day you got to beat him. It doesn't matter who they put against you. Maybe Sean Shelby thinks I'll lose this fight. But you know, if I beat him, then...The other thing is, no one's seen the way I fight. They saw the way I fought Chris Horodecki. That's not the guy I was even before. So, if I were an objective observer, if all my experience with Danny Boy Downes was that Horodecki fight, I'd think this kid is going to get crushed. That's fine; I don't mind it. Even on local Wisconsin shows it was like, "look at that skinny white kid, he's going to get beat up." So, it's nothing new to me. No one looks at me like I'm a bad-ass looking kid. I've never had that.
MMA TORCH: How has this training camp been? What have you been focusing on most? Are you working on your own skills, or more on tailoring your skills to your opponent?
DANNY DOWNES: Um, a little bit of both. The one thing with this one is that I've got a new strength and conditioning coach out at NX Level in Waukesha, Wisconsin. It's been great. Every fighter says "Oh I'm in the best shape of my life." But this is the best I've ever felt. Like, everybody, all the guys in the gym are impressed. It's not only the way I look, the way I feel.
I remember, I was home for Thanksgiving and I had to change my shirt for something. And my mom walked by and she was like, "Danny! Flex! Wow!" And yeah it's my mom. But if you can impress your mom with your muscle tone, that's something new.
MMA TORCH: [During fight week], when does the switch flip, from Dan Downes, nice kid, college grad and all that to someone going in there to try and hurt somebody? How does that happen, when does that happen, and what does it feel like?
DANNY DOWNES: It's nice to be going out of town and stuff, because it's like I don't have to interact. If I was still in Milwaukee I'd still have to do lessons. I do lessons with soccer moms, with little kids. So you don't want to be an A-hole with little kids, especially when you're trying to teach them how to punch and enjoy martial arts. So I can become more of a loner. But you watch in your head, you can get a little meaner. So that's nice.
I don't really notice it until the day of. At the weigh-ins you're more concerned with making weight. You get your meal and you feel good, you can kind of relax. But you get up that morning and the key is to not let it get too amped up. I remember in my first fight ever, and right before it. I was geeked out for like two weeks before it. I'd wake up in the middle of the night just thinking about my heart racing. And you race yourself so much it's hard to get up on the night of the fight. So you just kind of have to work to control that energy.
When you start wrapping your hands; when you get your hands wrapped, once that's on it's like the switch flips. And that's kind of why I love doing this too. It lets me be someone else. It's like when I'm Danny Boy, the alter-ego, I'm cockier, more arrogant, things like that. Which you have to be to fight. But I would never want to carry myself like that everyday. But it's kind of nice to be that Dr. Jekyl/Mr. Hyde thing. You have to let your bad side out.
MMA TORCH: How does this fight play out on Thursday night?
DANNY DOWNES: The fight plays out with me just controlling him. In a way he's a one-trick pony. He's got a lot of guillotines, but he's like Cody McKenzie, he's slick. From what I've seen he just muscles it. I've been watching film on him and it's not so much what he does right but what other guys are doing wrong.
MMA TORCH: But points to Zhang for capitalizing.
DANNY DOWNES: Exactly! It takes skill, even, you know, it takes skill to finish anyone. Whether they're a tomato can or they're UFC Champion. It takes skill to beat somebody. But I really see myself controlling him, and I don't think he'll be able to handle someone who doesn't freak out. A lot of guys have fought him and freaked out, and he gets them. I feel good, I'm composed, and he's not going to be able to draw me into what he wants. It's going to be exciting, too, but I'm not going to go crazy and try to beat him in the first ten seconds. Slow torture.
MMA TORCH: You had five days for Horodecki, and a full length camp for this fight. Can you compare and contrast now that you've experienced both types of camps [for a WEC fight]?
DANNY DOWNES: I guess the biggest thing is kind of the mindset. You get to fine tune your plan, and you feel a lot more confident. The weird thing is, you can say it was stupidity, arrogance, but I really thought I would beat Horodecki. That wasn't disrespectful...
MMA TORCH: You can't take the fight if you don't.
DANNY DOWNES: Yeah! It's not, "well, I'll just go there and get my show money." It's not worth it. The other thing is, I didn't know a lot about him. I tried to watch as much as I could. But to me it's kind of like going in there like when you get a new guy to spar against. Well, let's see what he does and you develop his tendencies and you get a feel for the person. But I didn't know Horodecki so I was just going to have to figure it out, have to wing it.
But with this [camp], I honestly don't see how he beats me. I don't see it.
MMA TORCH: Have you been sparring and training directly with Anthony Pettis? How is he looking? And also, what do you pick up from him?
DANNY DOWNES: He's looking great. The one thing that's nice about him, he's so fast and aggressive, explosive. Like, he's a different level of athlete. I've gotten a lot more athletic, but I'm not Anthony Pettis. He'll throw stuff from nowhere. The nice thing with him is you always need to be on your toes. Whether I'm grappling with him or striking with him, I always have to be ready. And the thing I know is that's why it's great to have an awesome camp here. Him, Eric Koch, Pat Barry's here; lot of great guys. And, I know, Zhang is a great fighter. He wouldn't be in the WEC if he wasn't, but he's not Anthony Pettis. If I can go with Anthony Pettis, the guy who could be Lightweight Champ, then I can handle him. He's not going to throw anything I've never seen before. He's not going to hit me and make me go, "Oh my God. I've never been hit that hard before." I've been hit hard. He's not going to be faster, stronger, more athletic, or anything that I've seen before. That's the nice thing of working with someone that caliber. You're only as good as your training partners.
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