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Torch Talk with Art Davie, pt. 3 of 3
Originally Published: May 20, 2000
PWTorch Newsletter #335
In the following "Torch Talk" (the final of three installments) Art Davie, co-founder and current promoter of the UFC pay-per-view phenomenon, responds to critics who say the UFC fights are as much a work as traditional pro wrestling matches. He also discusses how he chooses fighters and on what their pay is based. The interview was conducted Apr. 11, 1995.
Wade Keller: When you originally got into promoting UFC, what did you think were the main ways you'd make people aware of the product?
Art Davie: Immediately we knew that with cable you create the commercials, and of course cable derives 50 percent of the revenue by running the event so they would run tremendous cross channel spots. We knew that TV would be a tremendous avenue. We overestimated the amount of martial artists that would watch it. We felt our advertising in the martial arts community would be far more effective than it has been. The fact of the matter is when we did a survey at the UFC3 we found out that two-thirds of our audience are boxing and wrestling fans. Twenty-eight percent are martial artists. Our audience is 17-25, two years of college, primarily Caucasian. We have a strong Hispanic component, though, with the pay-per-view audience. They tend to buy pay-per-views at a slightly higher rate in all categories including concerts and boxing.
Keller: Is it both men and women who watch?
Davie: Very strong in men, but about one-quarter of our audience is women. The women report that it's sexy to see a Ken Shamrock and a Dan Severn grappling and punching. Sexier than boxing.
Keller: What today do you think are the key elements to spreading word about UFC?
Davie: Television. We do some print, magazines like Penthouse, newspapers like Newsday. Major city dailies like the Philadelphia Inquirer or the Cleveland Plain-Dealer. In the event city we do the full range of advertising that you do for a live event including local print, TV, radio, etc.
Keller: How helpful are the articles that are written about UFC in newsstand magazines and newspapers?
Davie: Public relations and the press lend authenticity and credibility to the event. I myself feel that advertising is far more effective in attracting the customer to our event, yet I didn't completely address the question you asked before. You asked about the most effective advertising. I think the word of mouth has been more powerful than anything we have done with the media. I think what's happened is the average UFC household, we found out by survey, has eight people watching it in the house.
Keller: The average?
Davie: The average. They're bringing over their friends. They're buying a pizza, some soda pop or a six-pack of beer. They sit around and watch the event, then they go to work the next day and tell them, "You won't believe what I saw on TV the other night. You won't believe these fights." That kind of advertising I think has driven the event more than anything. I think we've only understood how much of an iceberg that has been for us.
Keller: Besides a few headaches it has caused, have there been any other negative effects to the McCains and the types of protesting that is coming from people who in all likelihood have never seen a complete UFC event?
Davie: We don't underestimate the political opposition. We respect it. We think it's misinformed. It has had an effect on the willingness of some states and some cities to consider the event. But the popularity of the event has also opened up doors to other cities and states and countries that prior to the advertising and marketing hadn't heard about it.
Keller: Before the first event took place, you probably didn't have much of an idea of how the matches were going to go. What were the major things that surprised you about the first show?
Davie: I think the shortness of the bouts. The first fights were remarkably short; nothing went over five minutes. That was not a surprise, but a minor revelation. I don't think we were surprised by the paucity of injuries. We anticipated there would be relatively few injuries. We've increased the medical intervention support consistently throughout. After the second event, the referee could stop the bout. What we found was that the corners would not throw the towel in. Interestingly enough, they would let their fighter fight until the fighter was injured. We found for the safety of the fighters that having John McCarthy or whoever was the third man in the Octagon, to step in was an asset. After the fourth UFC, at the fifth UFC, the doctor would now be consulted and could also be a factor if the fighter was injured in such a way that he would want to advise McCarthy that the fight should be stopped also. We've added more doctors. We have an orthopedic man present, we have an internist, we have a chiropractor ringside, we have two paramedic teams on standby, and we bring Leon Tabbs to every fight who I think is one of the premier fight men in the world from the boxing community. He's been to four of the five UFCs and I automatically bring him in. I think he's a great asset to protecting the fighters if they do suffer a cut.
So we have made incremental changes to the UFC since the first event, not to change the basic concept, but what we believed would be an incremental improvement to it.
Keller: After you realized how short the matches would probably end up being on these tournaments, was that a concern or a worry for you?
Davie: No, because we also felt too that that was an ebb and flow situation, that depending upon the fighters and how they were matched by the draw at the press conference it could change radically. You could have two major defensive grapplers who could expend the length of their bout to 36 minutes as Shamrock and Gracie did on Friday night. In the case of a professional boxer and a karate master, the bout could be over in two minutes or less. That's happened, too. We knew it would ebb and flow, just as it does in boxing. In some cases, the bouts end in less than three minutes, in other cases the bouts go 15 rounds and it's a draw.
Keller: Do you try to avoid comparisons to professional wrestling. Many people may see the octagon and think it's just the latest WWF gimmick match and brush it off because of that?
Davie: Our advertising has woven several strands and themes throughout them. Certainly, the traditional martial arts is emphasized. To some extent there is a promotional quality that is probably consistent with modern boxing and modern wrestling, which (the martial arts industry) probably hasn't seen. By the same token, we know once we show what goes on inside the Octagon, fans intrinsically seem to understand this is not a work, that this is a real fight. We feel the best thing to do in our advertising is to show what goes on in the Octagon. It seems to stand and speak for itself.
Keller: Does it concern you that there are people, especially from the pro wrestling side of things, who believe that the UFC events to one extent or another are also a work?
Davie: The old funny line about people in the wrestling business is that they believe everything is a work including the NFL. I respect and understand that, but by the same token, I understand that some wrestlers after UFC4 had stopped Dan Severn at a match he was visiting and observing. They said, "Dan, tell us. It is a work, right?" And Dan denied it and said absolutely, categorically no. Some of them shook their head and said, "He's not telling the truth." So people within the wrestling community may be predisposed to seeing everything as a work. I can assure you that with UFC4 in particular, when we went three minutes over (the allotted satellite time), that no one in their right mind would do that. If it was a work it would have been coordinated. Someone at U.S. Choice lost their job over it. Major heads were put on the block. We lost 30 percent of our revenue. No promoter in their right mind lets a work go three minutes over. But I can tell you that's what happened with shoots in the 1920s in wrestling when it was the year of Strangler Lewis and Jim Londos. There were two and three hour matches at that point and the promoters decided they had to do something to control it, thus it went to a work. If what we were doing was a work, we would have never run over in UFC4. It was a major catastrophe.
Keller: Unless it was a terribly organized work.
Davie: Yeah (laughs). I can tell you absolutely, categorically that the UFC is a shoot. We don't know who the fighters will match up against until the day before the event at the press conference. It is not scripted in any way, shape, or form. Nobody is paid to do anything other than to go in there and fight their heart out and emerge as the best fighter on the planet.
Keller: How do you find fighters for the events?
Davie: We advertise in martial arts magazines and other magazines around the world as far away as Europe, Asia, and South America. We do press releases. I get over 400 applications per event. We boil it down to a short list of 50. Everyone sends me video tapes, photos, a completed application which is multi-page. Then I start vectoring in on those 50 on my short list. I check references, I check sanctioning bodies, I go out and look at them. I see them work out, I see them fight. I want to see them fighting up against somebody in their own style. I bring somebody over for them to spar with to see what I can see. After that I select twelve. In some cases I have some cancellations due to injuries. I've had guys one week out get injured and I've had to replace them. That's difficult. I've never had a guy walk away from the event, saying he got there and got scared.
Keller: I haven't seen any criticism yet in any published articles of how the fighters are selected. Have there been accusations that you carefully select maybe a second tier level of opponents so that the Gracies and the Shamrocks and the people that you're marketing have a better chance of coming out ahead and sticking with you?
Davie: I haven't heard that criticism specifically. I think when some people see that a particular stylist of their style goes in and doesn't do well, they ask me why I don't get somebody who's doing a national seminar in that style. Invariably we've asked that person, some known name, and he doesn't do it. The last thing he wants to do is to go in the Octagon and lose; it would hurt his business. I get the toughest young guys out there in a particular style. In some cases when they get in the Octagon and it's a real fight like this is, virtually a street fight, the guys forget a lot of what they've learned. And a lot of what they've learned really doesn't apply. It really doesn't apply when you go in an all-out fight like that. Everyone looks good punching bricks.
Keller: How do you decide if someone comes back for a second event? Obviously there is an inherent advantage that a Shamrock or a Gracie or a Severn have in being used to the environment.
Davie: If you do well or you really blow me away with what I've seen. I know what to look for. I saw Pat Smith, who was eliminated in the first round of UFC1, and I knew Pat wasn't finished. I've got an eye for this, too. I know if a guy has something that maybe we haven't seen all of yet. Like this guy, Joe Charles, intrigues me. I don't think we've seen everything from Joe Charles. When I talked to Severn yesterday, I asked Dan who was his toughest fight among the three. He said it was Joe Charles because he was so powerful. He said he almost got his arm locked. I said, "Not Beneteau?" He said, "Oh, Beneteau was good, too, but you asked me who was the toughest. I say Joe Charles."
Charles is a monster. He came into the UFC4 as an alternate and he knocked down a trimmed down Kevin Rossier who came in at 245. He just won the WKC title in Biloxi with a knockout. He weighed 326 when he fought at UFC1. Joe came in there and stunned him with a punch. He knocked him off his feet. Kevin's got a great jaw. Then he went down, jumped on top of him, Kevin extends the arm, he gets the lock, and it's all over in under 20 seconds.
Also, I listen to the fans, too. They'll tell me, "Hey, when are you going to get that so-and-so back." To some extent it's how well a guy does. To some extent it's also my perception as a promoter that a guy has more in his kickbag than I saw that night.
Keller: Is your goal to find people who will create interesting and entertaining fights and provide some glamour and color, or is it strictly trying to find someone who can beat the top guys?
Davie: Millius and I, when we sat down originally, we said, "You know, when I was a kid, there were eight boxing champions in eight weight classes and there was basically one sanctioning body. Everyone knew who the world heavyweight champ was. The problem now is there are 15 weight classes. There are five or six sanctioning bodies. Kickboxing is even worse. You don't know who Superman is." The UFC and the Octagon is about the search for Superman. That's why there's no weight classes. We're trying to find the one hand-to-hand fighter on the planet who reigns supreme, who could beat anyone else. That's what I'm looking for. If I find that man, I feel like I've done my job.
Keller: Does your connection with and the roots that go back to the start of UFC with the Gracie family produce prejudices? Certainly there are accusations of that?
Davie: I wouldn't have gotten involved in doing what I do... I told Rorion, "The only one who picks the fighters is going to be me. If that's acceptable and if we keep this thing open so all styles can have an equal fair shake, then I'll do it on that basis. I won't do it any other way." Everyone has been very good about that. We structured it that way so I could have that kind of decision making power. Otherwise I didn't want to be involved in it. I wanted to find the best fighter in the world. If it's a Gracie, fine. If not, the UFC goes on. The UFC isn't dependent upon Royce Gracie winning.
Keller: Given that some of the UFC entrants appear to be in flabby shape sometimes and don't dress all that well, when some of them lose in less than two minutes, do you fear that your customers at home feel they've been presented a shoddy product? Does the look of a fighter come into it when you're selecting fighters?
Davie: No. Charisma is an intangible and I try not to worry about that. This isn't the WWF in terms of guys being themed and all dressed up. The fact of the matter is, my primary consideration is whether a guy can fight for real in the Octagon. If he's carrying an extra ten pounds of fat, so be it. I've seen guys fight in warehouses in Mexico - and I've got a guy coming into the next event in that category - who looks very fearsome. In the case of John Hess, who I also found fighting in warehouses, he looks like Baby Huey.
Keller: Do you find a problem with some top caliber fighters not wanting to come in because the payoffs are relatively low based on their chance of winning and what they stand to lose in terms of reputation?
Davie: Well, I haven't been able to get Tyson yet. I'd like to get Craig Pittman. I ran into him the other day. He and Ric Flair. Phyllis Lee, Dan (Severn's) manager, introduced us. I had had a couple of conversations with (WCW vice president) Eric Bischoff about putting him in the UFC. He's a tough guy. I like him.
Keller: Have you run into potential competitors complaining that they have a chance at only $50,000 when your company is making a disproportionately larger amount of money?
Davie: I haven't had people say that to me yet. We've had conversations with people like James "Bonecrusher" Smith. A price was met there. It wasn't a question of money. It was a question of he thought he couldn't do it. Tyrell Biggs. We offered his agent an appearance fee that was acceptable. He watched a tape and said, "You know, I think I'd be embarrassed doing this. I think I would lose." In some cases, obviously I can't get Hulk Hogan to do my show, nor is Mike Tyson (going to accept). As our event grows, we have every intention of increasing the purse.
Keller: Is there an appearance fee that is added on in addition to the potential of winning the purse?
Davie: If they can help us on pay-per-view. If they have name value.
Keller: Gracie and Shamrock, for example, are getting an appearance fee?
Davie: Each time we do a show with them, a tournament with them, we have to negotiate with their management. They structure a deal on what they feel they're worth and what we feel they're worth to the pay-per-view.
