Sep 29, 2009 - 4:12:48 PM By: Jamie Penick, MMATorch Editor-in-Chief "This is the first time that I am getting ready for a fight with a little hate for my opponent. He continues to fuel the fire with his ignorant comments about my opponents and my record. Next thing you know, he will tell you his high school was bigger than mine and therefore that'll be the deciding factor. I am ready. I wish I could kick his ass tomorrow... We have been doing a "bring your child to the gym" day so we can deal with temper tantrums and irrational thoughts... Brock is not good with math. Thankfully, the UFC and WWE have paid him enough money to get a math tutor. I know I wasn't walked through the front door of the UFC with people holding the door for me. I wasn't fed fights that sell pay-per-views. I was matched up by promoters and took whatever they put in front of me... I have fought three times as many people then Brock has. If he wants to disrespect the opponents I have fought, that is his choice. I say any man or woman that enters that cage to face an opponent is worthy of my respect. They have trained hard, and to disrespect MMA fighters is disrespecting the sport of MMA. What I can tell you is, talent-wise I respect Brock, but he needs a filter put on his words."
-UFC Heavyweight Title Challenger Shane Carwin responds in an interview with Heavy.com to Champ Brock Lesnar's comments that he hasn't fought anyone outside of Gabriel Gonzaga.
Penick's Analysis: Carwin continues to toss jabs at Lesnar as this feud continues to build in interviews heading toward their November 21st meeting at UFC 106. Carwin's right, he's had to fight through all that was placed in front him and he's done everything he's needed to, and his 11 wins absolutely legitimate. At the same time, while Lesnar was given the fast track he still had to get through that high level of competition to get where he's at. Both fighters have valid gripes with the other coming into this one, and this is simply the simmering beginning for what may boil over come November.
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It's funny that Carwin is trying to say Brock is talking down to him when
it's Carwin who's CONSTANTLY one-upping Lesnar as if he's got little man
syndrome. Lesnar comes into his fights at 280? Carwin says he'll be 290.
Lesnar has 4X gloves? Suddenly Carwin gets 5X gloves. This goes on and on,
Carwin is full of himself and seems ridiculously jealous or something. I
can't wait to see him get smashed into the undercards.
Anon
29 Sep 2009, 17:35
Also, it's a pity Carwin won't shut up. As has shown to be apparent, Lesnar
puts on a hell of a show after beating people who talk shit about him. :)
I see it the opposite Anon..Lesnar is the bully here. I like how
respectfull Shane is. What a classy guy. The difference between Shane and
Brock is like night and day. I feel that most MMA fans can appreciate
Shanes humility.
Anon
29 Sep 2009, 18:53
Yeah, because what he just said was really classy and humble. Brock isn't
the one insulting his opponent's intelligence and maturity - sure he's
talking some trash but he's keeping everything fight related and not making
personal attacks.
Guess I'll be rooting for Brock again solely because of the shit he takes
from everyone.
Joe
29 Sep 2009, 21:39
Brock may not be insulting anyone's intelligence, however, one can't deny
that his reputation is not one of respect toward his opponents. He said so
himself. "I didn’t have any respect for Randy [Couture], I didn’t have
any respect for Heath [Herring], I don’t have any respect for Frank,”
he said. “There’s going to be a winner, there’s going to be a loser.
As soon as you step in and have any respect for your opponent, I think you
become the loser a hell of a lot sooner"
Shane is one class act! He has been humble for all of his opponents,
including Lesnar. In my view, Shane is a realist and is saying what most of
the MMA world already thinks.
prairiedog
29 Sep 2009, 23:18
Like him, hate him, whatever but doesn't Lesnar seem to be able to get
people talking about his fights? BJ Penn talks alot of trash about his
opponents to-and in the case of GSP is still doing it, but no one gives him
the grief they do Lesnar. Had Lesnar never competed in the WWE I don't
think as many people would be so down on him. I remember seeing this Ken
Shamrock guy on WWF(as it was known then) and finding out he came from this
UFC thing. Now when he quit WWF did he suddenly lose all credibility
because he competed as a pro-wrestler? As I've become a fan of mma I don't
think Shamrock lost any stock for taking Vince's money so why do so many
hold that against Lesnar?
Anon
29 Sep 2009, 23:51
Fair enough Joe, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on Lesnar.
prairiedog,
It's the fact that a huge guy with some skill and athletic ability comes in
and completely ransacks the most prestigious HW division in the world with
relative ease. His only moment where he was losing was the 5 seconds of
being knee-barred by Frank Mir in his 2nd MMA fight. Coupled with the fact
that he was from the WWE and everyone cracked jokes about how the fake
wrestler was going to lose, then ended up making them look stupid by
winning... it's just a bunch of hurt egos in my opinion.
Brock was disrespected since the moment it was announced he was coming into
the UFC. Every time he wins, it just infuriates the haters even more. At
this point, there's nothing he could do to win over the hardcore fan-base,
so why try? Appeal to the casual fan-base instead - it's larger anyways.
Anon
29 Sep 2009, 23:56
I should point out that my first sentence plays out a lot on forums. It's
almost like fans can't believe what they are seeing, and try to come up
with other reasons Lesnar wins.
He just uses his size! He's just a wrestler! He takes steroids! As if these
three things alone are enough (history would suggest otherwise) They try to
come up with something, ANYTHING to rationalize why he's the UFC champion
and failing that, call him out for his antics which aren't even close to
the top 20 worst in the UFC.
Joe
30 Sep 2009, 00:37
Prairiedog,
I think that most people view the WWE as a pseudosport. Therefore the
respect of a professional wrestler entering the MMA world would be hard to
gain, especially with devouted MMA fans. That, coupled with an abrasive
personality like Lesnar's lead people to not like him. He's viewed as a
bully. Not a hero.
There's no doubt Lesnar is athletic, but I believe Shane Carwin and others
are right. Lesnar should have had to work his way up and not have been
given the opportunities White gave him. There are many a men out there who
could step in and compete at a high level just like Lesnar, but instead
faught their way to the top. Most have been respectufl of their opponents.
I think Shane is a talented fighter, but also displays those rare
Couture-like qualities of a champion.
Jared
30 Sep 2009, 01:00
I've never felt negatively about Shane Carwin at all, but these comments
change that a little. He condemns Lesnar for being disrespectful of his
opponents, but in the same breath is disrespectful to Lesnar. It's one
thing to say, "Lesnar is being ignorant" or "Lesnar is acting childish".
It's another thing to say "We have been doing a 'bring your child to the
gym' day so we can deal with temper tantrums and irrational thoughts."
Then he says that Brock has dissed the level of his opponents and says that
he's fought 3 times as many people as Brock. Well that's somewhat dissing
Brock's opponents by not giving them due credit. Carwin's fought 3 times as
many opponents, but Lesnar's fought more than 3 times the level of
competition. Directly or indirectly saying 11 wins over opponents who, most
of which, wouldn't fight on the prelim of a UFC Fight Night is more
impressive than wins over Herring, Couture and Nogueira is ridiculous.
And this whole "Brock was handed everything on a silver platter" idea, or
Carwin's quote "I know I wasn't walked through the front door of the UFC
with people holding the door for me" needs to stop. If you want to say that
the door was held open for Lesnar, fine. Giving someone an opportunity
doesn't discredit what they do with that opportunity. "I wasn't fed fights
that sell pay-per-views." Getting fed fights is not being fed victories. It
doesn't matter how fast he was put in main events, it matters how he's
performed in them. People need to focus more on Lesnar's road IN the
Octagon, than his road TO the Octagon.
I disagree Jared. I guess we all precieve things a little differently. I
thought Shane's comments were some great shots in reply to Brock's
comments. "He’s a tough guy and a wrestler. But he’s a Division II
national champion — enough said"
Notice that Shane did not start the trash talking. Brock did. You can't
be mad at Shane for having better shots so far. I think this fight will be
good.
I must confess though, that I have more admiration for Shane than I do for
Brock.
I agree, giving someone an opportunity is great. But Brock should have
been given an opportunity to fight in the UFC at the lower echelons first.
Just like the opportunities extended to GSP, The Natural, Chuck, The
Dragon, and all the others.
I do believe that despite a person's talent, they should have to earn their
way up and not be given these huge paper-view events while all those who
get paid little or nothing start at the bottom. I feel that most MMA fans
would agree.
Joe
30 Sep 2009, 15:36
Well, I guess I'll root for Shane and you guys can root for Brock. You can
insult my intelligence Steve, but I bet you're not attending a top
university majoring in Neuroscience and Physiology.
I'll take the high road and refrain from playing in the mud with some of
the crappy things being said about me.
Joe
30 Sep 2009, 15:59
Well if you were trying to make me laugh Steve, you succeeded. As far as
"phonies" I guess we'll never know. People can say anything online. For
example, "Oh and yes I am attending a top university, just not majoring in
Neuroscience and Physiology".
Its good to see that fans get heated over fights. It wouldn't be fun if
they didn't. I guess some fans actually exercise composure and refrain
from the pre-pubescent name calling, while others just can't control
themselves. It's almost like they're irrational little kids who throw
tantrums.
Have a nice day Steve.
Steve
30 Sep 2009, 16:05
Haha Steve stop making yourself look so foolish and pretend you are taking
some sort of high road.
I do not need to question what you say only point it out because you are
making obvious that you are a total tool.
Irrational little kids that throw tantrums? Is Shane Carwin that much of an
influence on you?
Hope you get kicked in the balls Joe.
Joe
30 Sep 2009, 16:17
Steve, I don't wish ill on you man. I hope it will be a good fight.
Still two months to go and if this trash talking keeps up, it will make it
that much more worth watching. I'm just not in love with Brock like his fan
base seems to be. I think one poster said it best here though. You either
like him or hate him, but his fights are talked about. Take your mind out
every now and then and dance on it Steve.
Jared
30 Sep 2009, 16:30
"Notice that Shane did not start the trash talking."
To me, it's irrelevant who starts what. And technically, Carwin made
comments first. He commented on Brock after UFC 100. Brock hadn't addressed
Carwin before then. Secondly, even if Brock did start it, that doesn't
justify Carwin's actions. You can't call someone a "class act" for talking
trash even if it's in response to someone else. Carwin's trash talking
isn't justified because Lesnar trash talked him too.
And I disagree about Carwin having "Couture-like qualities of a champion."
In my experience, Randy has NEVER trash talked. You quoted Brock as saying
he doesn't respect Randy, did Randy respond by dissing Brock? I don't
believe so. Class acts aren't just respectful when their opponent is. If
Carwin was a true class act, he would be respectful even when Brock was
not.
As far as Brock getting earlier opportunities, how can you argue that he
was undeserving when he's dominated everybody? Why should he have to
destroy all these undercard guys when it was evident he can hang with the
top guys? And if he was fighting undercard guys, then all "true" mma fans
would just say, "yeah, but he's just beating guys that aren't good". He
didn't just need to fight top guys for high drawing money, he needed to
fight top guys to prove if he was for real. The notoriety didn't just let
him go to the top, it pretty much forced him or no one would take him
seriously. People complain that he was fighting top level guys, but they
would've complained the same if he was fighting low level guys and people
would say that he's being "protected" by the UFC (ie Kimbo in Elite XC).
Besides, after Lesnar destroyed Herring, it was evident he was good. Were
all questions answered? No. But it was evident at the time that he was
above the rest of the second tier heavyweights. And people talk like being
matched up with the best right away is a positive. In terms of competition,
Lesnar was thrown to the wolves. If he had lost to any of the top guys in
convincing fashion, it would've done a lot of damage. If fighter A was put
against GSP right out of the gate and lost, it would be a longer road back
to the title than if they fought their way there originally.
As much benefit comes from fighting top level guys, the same goes for risk
as well.
Joe
30 Sep 2009, 16:50
Again I disagree Jared. Shane was essentially the voice of many people
after Lesnar Vs Mir 2. It was obvious that Lesnar pissed off most of the
MMA world and MMA fighters. When Shane was asked about Lesnar's post fight
antics, he responded reasonably. Its one thing to desrespect your
opponent, openly disrepect your opponent and then disrespect your opponent
after a victory, then to state reasonably your thoughts on such abrasive
post fight behaviours as Shane did. So I don't see Shane as having
disrespected Lesnar.
As far as "The Natural" Randy never disrepecting an opponent you should re
see the fight between Tito and Randy. Yea the one where Randy spanks
Tito's ass.
That fight parallels the Shane and Lesnar to me. You have this loud mouth
bully and a down-to-earth MMA professional.
I'm not implying that Lesnar was not worthy of the top performers, but
noteriety does not equate to fairness. It was a slap in the face to people
who have been on undercards, to see Lesnar, a former WWE star, walk into
the UFC and be given the chance to face the guys he did.
Hopefully this will be a good fight.
Joe
30 Sep 2009, 16:53
Much if it has to do with Lesnar being a cash cow for the UFC as well.
Wes
30 Sep 2009, 16:58
Shane is going to smash that big ass monkey Lesnar. Lesnar will face
someone his own size.
Anon
30 Sep 2009, 17:56
Wes,
Shane Carwin inflates his stats and is nowhere near Lesnar's size. For a
guy who is supposedly 6'3", he is towered over by other 6'3" guys and is
only eye to eye with Gonzaga in their staredown because Carwin was wearing
shoes and Gonzaga was leaning forward greatly. Realistically, Carwin is
6'1", 260 pounds. Even if he bulks up to 280, he's going to be a lot slower
and at more of a disadvantage IMO. Carwin can throw around Cole Konrad, a
300 pound Div 1 NCAA champion with ease during training, so Carwin's size
isn't going to be a factor regardless. As much as nobody is willing to
admit, Lesnar has skill. It's just exaggerated even more when he faces
smaller opponents. Unfortunately, Carwin will be another one of those
smaller opponents.
Anon
30 Sep 2009, 17:57
Forgive me, I meant to say that LESNAR throws around Cole Konrad. Konrad is
part of Lesnar's training camp.
Joe
30 Sep 2009, 18:11
Hey Anon. Lesnar has skill no doubt. But Shane has skill too. He's got a
legit backround that includes wrestling and football. He's definately got
knock out power and it will be hard for Lesnar to take him down because of
his size. Shane will try to stuff the take downs because that will be
Brocks stength. I hope they go tow-to-tow because I want to see if Lesnar
has a chin. I think Shane is prepared to fight on the ground too. What
would happen if Shane takes Lesnar down and Lesnar's the one being laid on?
I'm not really a huge fan of Shane, but to be honest I'm not a fan of
Lesnar. Should be fun to watch. I think every fighter inflates their size.
I know when I played football we all did.
Joe
30 Sep 2009, 18:12
football isnt MMA though.
Jonathan Godoy
30 Sep 2009, 21:01
All I will say about this bout is that Carwin is not like Frank Mir who is
past his days of title contention, nor is an old of date legend that is
litterally 60-70 pounds lighter than his opponet.( I Have great respect for
Randy and think he will be great at 205)
Carwin is no fucking joke, and it was incredibly disrespectful for lesner
to say that he has beaten no one. The reality of the situation is Carwin
has more experience than Lesner, and imo will ko him if the bout stay
standing long enough. Lesner is a freakish athlete and comes from a soley
entertainment backround, where I beleive (as many other mma fans) he should
have stayed. No doubt he sells PPV's, but lets see him get some competition
under his belt with his first "legit" title defence (seeing as Mir held the
interum belt at the tme of his defeat unifying them)I am excited to see
this bout, and personally hope e sends a humbled Brock Lesner back to the
gym.
Jared
30 Sep 2009, 23:37
"Lesner is a freakish athlete and comes from a soley entertainment
backround"
Yeah, cause NCAA wrestling is purely entertainment. What doesn't make sense
to me is why they scripted Lesnar to go 106-5 instead of 111-0. Pretty dumb
planning by the NCAA.
"The reality of the situation is Carwin has more experience than Lesner"
Experience is relative. LeBron is less experienced than a lot of NBA
players, doesn't mean he's not one of the top two players in the world
along with Kobe. Derrick Rose is arguably a top 10 PG going into his second
season. Experience can be insignificant. I'm not saying it's completely
irrelevant, but it's far from the deciding factor.
"Frank Mir who is past his days of title contention"
Not sure about that, and I think the majority of mma experts would disagree
with you.
Convenient that Carwin's opponents being minimized is disrespectful and yet
you minimized Lesnar's victories over far superior heavyweights. For
argument's sake, let's say Carwin is Lesnars first "legit" test, what will
you say if Lesnar beats him? Will Lesnar be legitimized or will another
excuse just be tagged on to minimize Lesnar's victory?
Jared
30 Sep 2009, 23:58
Joe-
I actually think Randy-Tito is slightly different. Randy did it in the
Octagon, and I think there was more of a "I just schooled you" statement
than a "you are immature, irrational and stupid" statement. Not that it was
the most respectful thing you could do, but it's different than degrading
the type of person someone is.
I understand your point about Lesnar coming in and getting high priority.
But again, I think there are slightly special circumstances. The
heavyweight division was empty. It would be different if he came in today
and leapfrogged Carwin, Velasquez, Dos Santos etc.
Let's look at the heavyweight division as it was when Lesnar arrived:
Nogueira beats Sylvia (Sylvia leaves)
Couture- "retired"
Mir- on his way to fight Nogueira
Arlovski- on his way out
Gonzaga- on his way down after title shot
Kongo- still not ready for a title shot today, so definitely not ready back
then
Carwin- not in the UFC
Velasquez- not in the UFC
Dos Santos- not in the UFC
That pretty much covers the basis of the top tier as it stands today, so
who did Lesnar leapfrog? Guys that are still fighting on the undercard not
anywhere near a title shot? You only have so much room to complain if you
aren't where you think you should be. If you're not winning fights, it
doesn't matter if some guy comes in that's better than you and moves
ahead.
And anyone that was in the UFC when Lesnar came in and bypassed them...if
you're so pissed off and he's so undeserving, win fights and take his
title. Otherwise, keep losing and keep your mouth shut.
Joe
01 Oct 2009, 12:29
Jonathon, you make a good point. Lesnar does come from an entertainment
backround, seeing that NCAA wrestling is reletivley low-key compared to the
WWE and the UFC. So good point.
Although Lesnar does have wrestling in his backround, I wouldn't say that
is where he established his abrasive character or became the Brock we all
know today...so yea I agree he did come from an entertainment backround in
eyes of a lot of MMA fans.
Jared, I disagree with you yet again. After the Lesnar/Mir fight 2 Randy
had this to say about Lesnar. "I didn't really expect him to lose his mind
after the fight, but he did," Couture said of Lesnar. "That's just not the
kind of thing our sport is known for, those kinds of antics and those kinds
of comments"
Couture also took a shot at Lesnar for saying he planned to get on top of
his wife, Rena Mero, who's better known as the WWE star and former Playboy
cover girl Sable.
"I'm thinking, What, is that a special occasion?," Couture said. "You're
married to Sable, you'd think that'd be happening all the time."
So indeed even our beloved Randy has taken shots outside of the ring, in
this, case his comments reflected what most MMA fans had been thinking.
As far as the Heavy weight division before Lesnar- Every one of those guys
put a ton of training into getting to the top. It was a slap in the face
to all of them. So I disagree with you again.
There's no anger in my blood. Im stating what the majority of MMA fans
think. If that makes YOU mad then deal with it. I can promise you that
Lesnar is the bad guy in this fight and most people root for the good guy.
Sorry.
Anon
01 Oct 2009, 13:42
Joe,
I'm actually curious to see how Lesnar handles himself from the bottom. I
think it would be interesting to see Carwin take Lesnar down. Will Lesnar
panic, or will he stay composed and get back to his feet? I'm sure the
crowd would definitely roar.
Still, I see either Lesnar taking Carwin down and TKO'ing him, or Carwin
connecting with a right and putting Lesnar to sleep. I'm a big Lesnar fan
obviously, but people who think Lesnar's head/neck are too big to be
knocked unconscious are stupid. Carwin is powerful enough to knock out any
fighter in any weight class. By the same token, I think Lesnar can take
down Carwin at will. If Gonzaga did with one arm more or less, and if
Couture was having his way with him during training for UFC 91, then I see
no reason why Lesnar can't (yes I realize that's using MMA-math but it's
focusing on a specific issue Lesnar is known to excel in)
We'll see what happens first, I guess. Win or lose, I'd like to see Lesnar
fight Big Nog next, and I'd like to see Carwin fight Junior Dos Santos.
Jared
01 Oct 2009, 14:18
"so yea I agree he did come from an entertainment backround in eyes of a
lot of MMA fans"
It's completely irrelevant what's "in the eyes of the fans." Fame from
professional wrestling does not mean that's the extent of his experience.
People's lack of knowledge of Lesnar's legitimate skills doesn't diminish
or erase them. It's purely fact that Lesnar was 106-5 in NCAA wrestling. No
matter how many people don't know that doesn't mean it didn't happen, so
it's legitimate experience.
Randy's comments on Brock are not disrespectful in the slightest. Shane
made similar comments, but they included PERSONAL insults. Not just
observations. There's an absolute different between saying "Lesnar acted
like an idiot" and "Lesnar is an idiot." If Carwin's comments were limited
to the former, that would be fine. But he didn't, he added on the latter in
his comments.
"Every one of those guys put a ton of training into getting to the top. It
was a slap in the face to all of them."
A slap in the face to all of them? Nogueira and Mir were in the title
picture AHEAD of Brock. 6 of the other fighters I listed were/are NOT in
the UFC. How can that be a slap in the face to them? That leaves 2: Gonzaga
had a title shot and was slipping down the ladder (and still is) and Kongo
hasn't developed enough to reach the top and was nowhere near a title shot
by the time Lesnar came in. And if Lesnar would've fought Kongo/Gonzaga
before or after Herring, he would've destroyed them anyway.
To put this in perspective, Lesnar is on top and Gonzaga is nowhere near
him and Kongo is still quite a ways away from him.
Also, when I said "And anyone that was in the UFC when Lesnar came in and
bypassed them...if you're so pissed off and he's so undeserving, win fights
and take his title. Otherwise, keep losing and keep your mouth shut."
That was addressed to "anyone in the UFC", not you. I didn't accuse you of
being angry. I was saying it to any fighters. If Kongo and Gonzaga were
"slapped in the face" by Lesnar being shot to the top, then they should do
something about it. They should win fights and take his title. If they're
not capable of rising to his level, then they or anyone else who felt
"slapped in the face" should be quiet. Either beat him, or admit he's
better than you.
Joe
01 Oct 2009, 15:02
Hey Anon.
Yea, I agree (go figure). Lesnar has an exceptional take down ability. I
think Shane realizes the advantage Brock has, so he'll be training for
that. No matter the outcome, Big Nog and Brock would be awesome.
Jared,
Well I guess it's who you ask if Randy's comments were meant as a
compliment or as scourn for Brock. I see it as the latter.
I do believe Brock is an exceptional athlete, however, MMA fighters who
started from the bottom are mostly known to be MMA fighters, just as when
Shamrock went to the WWF. He was former MMA star Shamrock. I feel that a
lot of MMA fans don't yet see Brock as an MMA professional nor as having a
backround in MMA, but rather an import from the WWE, despite having
wrestling in his backround.
His stint in the WWE outshined his performance as a collegiate wreslter
therefore he is known, by his WWE career, as having an entertainer
backround, by default. So maybe you misunderstood me there.
Just because the guys you listed were not in the UFC doesnt mean that there
weren't other fighters. I feel that Brocks noteriety in the WWE propelled
him into a position to face top opponents. Let's not forget..the UFC is a
business and Lesnar is a cash cow. BUT, just because you are a cash cow, I
feel, does not equate to being given special treatment or pay-per-view
events. It's demaening to fighters not just in the heavyweight division.
Misunderstanding with your comment about being pissed off.
Shane is really underestimated for this bout. I think that is going to be
his advantage in the fight. Brock will be overconfident and will not train
as hard. Meanwhile, Shane will have the same, probably more, intense
training that Lesnar had prior to fighting Mir.
The catch with Shane is that, he is largely unknown in his fighting. All
of his fights have been held to just the first round. That's going to make
it tough for Lesnar to train with. I only hope that Lesnar's training
partners don't feed him false BS about how great his is this and that,
because the danger would be that Lesnar, like I said will be overconfident
with a serious opponent in Shane.
Jared
01 Oct 2009, 17:01
I didn't say Randy's comments were a compliment, nor do I feel that way.
They weren't disrespectful. He was critical of Brock, but not in a negative
way by attacking Brock as a person. He may have condemned his actions, but
not him as a person. Carwin seems to mix the two a little.
I'll agree that Lesnar is a cash cow, but it wasn't the sole determining
factor for him fighting top competition. When Brock was convincing Dana to
bring him in after only one professional fight, he told him that he wants
to fight the best. He may be a cash cow, but he would've been had he fought
2 or 3 lower card guys. All the people Lesnar brought in would've paid to
see him fight anyone.
That said, I also don't think Lesnar was skyrocketed purely because of him
being a cash cow either. Kimbo can make a lot of money and I don't think
he's 2 fights away from a title fight like Lesnar was. Lesnar is a beast,
and it's evident when he fights. Not a single person fighting in the UFC
when Lesnar was came in would've beat Herring the way Lesnar did. So while
I do understand a little where you're coming from, I don't think it was
purely money. The reason the majority of the people that Lesnar did bypass
got bypassed is because they're not as good as him. They haven't been
matched up with Herring or Mir because they would lose. They aren't on
their level yet. While the fans may have not believed Lesnar was on their
level when he started, he's proved that he is.
Brock may have come in at the second tier of the heavyweight and not the
bottom, but why should he have when he's clearly better than that? Fighters
aren't just matched up for money, they're matched up for ranking. If Lesnar
can come in and beat guys in the second tier, I see it as being pointless
to fight the bottom tier. If he's better than B fighters, it's pointless to
fight C fighters.
Maybe it goes back to the fact that people only see him as a WWE star. Now
I'm surprised at how fast he's risen, but not how high. Lesnar proved in
his first MMA fight that he was better than the bottom of the barrel, so he
moved up the ladder. And it goes back to my point, why match up a fighter
with Mir/Herring over Lesnar just because they've fought more times when
Lesnar can beat Herring/Mir and the more experienced fighters can't?
If Lesnar can beat a B, C, or D level fighter and Mir can beat a B, C or D
level fighter, why have them each fight a B, C, or D level fighter when
they can fight each other?
Joe
01 Oct 2009, 17:27
Jared,
Again, I guess its about who you ask, concerning Randy's comments. Maybe
Randy can clarify that.
It was not the sole factor in deciding weather Brock should be faced
against top fighters (on brock being a cash-cow). I feel that it was the
deciding factor, however. Big difference to me.
In all honesty our views are purely speculation because we don't know how
the UFC decides on matchups. But, based on past debacles that included
tier one fighters and their unsatisfaction with Dana and the UFC, it might
be safe assume that match ups are not always based on what the best fights
would be. Obviously, obviously, the UFC takes into account ticket sales,
profit estimates, etc when match ups are made. Thus, I feel Brocks
deciding factor was his cash-cow personality.
Also, if you read closely, I never made any mention of the purpose Brock
Lesnar "sky rocketed". To put simply, I commented on the opportunities
extended to him that may be viewed as favoritism, because those fighters
who have been around were left in the dog house. Another difference to me.
I don't think that it was apparent or obvious enought to assume that no
matter who Dana put in front of Lesnar he would have destroyed. I'm not
buying that.
A persons past experiences in a sport are overshadowed by their CURRENT
talent in MMA. Example, GSP does not have extenive wreslting in his back
round, but if you see his CURRENT abilities, he can compete with any top
collegiate wreslter.
I agree, if a fighter is better than opponent A he should be matched up
with the best. I think you missed my point. I am going to put it simply.
Brock Lesnar was given a hand out without having to prove himself first.
Despite having wreslting in his backround, that alone should not have
qualified him for his opportunities, because its not the measure of an MMA
fighters current talent or accumulation of skill.
Joe
01 Oct 2009, 17:30
excuse me, IT IS the measure of an MMA fighters current talent and skill.
Jared
01 Oct 2009, 18:41
"I agree, if a fighter is better than opponent A he should be matched up
with the best."
Who's not better than Lesnar? (With possible exceptions that are lined up
to face him: Carwin, Velasquez, Dos Santos) How can anyone say he wasn't
qualified to fight Mir out of the gate when he almost beat him, and
arguably would have if it wasn't for the horrible call we've come to know.
How can anyone say it was a hand out to fight Herring when he destroyed
him?
I think your point would be 100% valid if Lesnar had been decisively
beaten. But he hasn't. He has stood toe to toe with everyone and come out
on top (again, with exception to the first Mir fight that was
questionable). I agree with your assessment of GSP and I would transfer
that thought to Lesnar.
While you don't ignore the background, you don't look exclusively at it.
That's what I think people do with Lesnar. It's time to let go of his WWE
experience and focus on what he's currently doing in the UFC. In the
cctagon, he has beaten Herring, Couture and Mir. How was he not deserving
of facing them if he beat them?
If Lesnar faces the people and beats them, you can't say he was undeserving
of facing them.
Jared
01 Oct 2009, 18:42
*cctagon=octagon
Joe
01 Oct 2009, 19:04
Jared
you're talking as if the outcome was predetermained with the Hearing fight.
It's not and it wasn't when he fought those guys. Especially Heath.
I get your point also. I don't, however, view Lesnar as a WWE transfer
(only)...If you look back on my comments, I said a lot of MMA fans do. And
I understand where they come from. Unfortunately, not every MMA fan cares
how good he was in college wreslting. They see Lesnar as a WWE guy. It
makes sense to me because I knew nothing of Lesnar before the WWE.
Again, I'm not saying he is not deserving of fighting anyone. I'm saying
that initially, when he signed a gigantic contract with the UFC, it was an
opportunity not extended to those who have been around. I think Lesnars
noteriety played a role in that.
I'll let you get the last word on this because I'll keep coming here.
Haha. You make some good points Jared and hopefully in November all fans
can be happy with a great fight.
Take it easy
Jared
01 Oct 2009, 23:06
It wasn't predetermined, but it wasn't like Lesnar was a severe underdog.
It wasn't a sure thing Lesnar would win, but I don't think Lesnar had no
business being in there with Herring since he held his own with Mir. I
would say going into Lesnar-Mir 1, that Mir was favored 60-40 at best and I
think people who were knowledgeable about both Mir and Lesnar would agree.
"Unfortunately, not every MMA fan cares how good he was in college
wreslting. They see Lesnar as a WWE guy. It makes sense to me because I
knew nothing of Lesnar before the WWE."
I think this is the most telling thing you say. The reason why you,
admittedly, and so many others felt he had no business being in there is
because you only saw him as a WWE performer. It makes sense to think he was
elevated too quickly when people don't know the person. But if people had
known his collegiate wrestling, the athleticism he showed in WWE, and the
raw ability he showed in his first MMA fight, I think it was less shocking
to see him fight top tier fighters.
I do think being well known did give him a partial head start, because a
fighter generally needs two things to get a title shot, ability and name
recognition. Having the name recognition did give Lesnar a head start in
that department. But I don't think he was out of his element in the ability
department. A fighter that goes 10-0 in the UFC would almost assuredly get
a title shot before a guy that's 15-0 coming into the UFC. That's the
nature of the game.
Lesnar didn't need to fight to let people know who he was, he just needed
to fight to show how good he was. Considering everything in his background
and his natural ability, I don't think he should've had to fight lower
quality fighters just because. Like I said, his first fight he destroyed a
lower quality fighter. He needed to fight tougher competition to see where
he was.
I don't think it was strictly "he absolutely was on the level of Mir and
completely deserving of fighting" but I don't think it was "he had no
business being in there and was a glorified celebrity" (not necessarily
your exact perception, but it is a wide perception).
And I think at this point, we're kind of passed it. It may not have been an
absolute certainty at the time, but Lesnar has proved that he was deserving
of being in there and is also deserving of respect right now as the
champion. Despite what some MMA fans think, Lesnar has proved himself. That
said, I think Carwin is a more than formidable opponent and should make for
one phenomenal fight come November 21st.
The Saint
02 Oct 2009, 17:40
You guys sound really smart, but one thing all of you fail to address is
that the UFC is all about fighters skyrocketing overnight. This isn't
boxing where fighters have at least 20 professional fights before getting a
title shot (except for the De La Hoya's of the sport). The UFC is all
about the man of the hour, who'll make the most noise right away. It's not
just the UFC, it's mma in general. Fighters with more than 10 fights are
considered experienced, while pro boxers with that record are barely
fighting 6 rounders.
abc
05 Oct 2009, 18:49
it doesnt matter if your handed the fuckin fight, the door is opened for
you or whatever he BEAT courture, mir herring. HE BEAT THEM. yeah "oh he
sucks he got it handed to him" ok then you go get off the couch and beat
those people since its SO easy
